Scenario~Your Opinions

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

A buyer wins an N29 Buck Ewing from an auction house. The description of that card in the auction house is, "Extremely nice copy. The width Measures 1/8” of an inch less than the listed size although the card is definitely not trimmed. The length is full size. Minor toning at the bottom and a clean back. MB $400.", and the auction has a 6" scan. The card goes for $500.00. The buyer doesn't know if this is a good deal or not. The card arrives and the buyer decides to get it graded. The card comes back "Evidence of Trimming" from SGC. The buyer writes the auctioneer to ask for a refund and the seller refuses for three reasons that he gives:

1) The decsription implied those problems.
2) The auction ended six weeks ago and the return policy is 21 days.
3) He doesn't accept the opinion of third party graders.

The buyer pleads again for a compromise suggesting that the auctioneer buy it back (his offer) or trade some of his personal cards for it. The auctioneer tells him no but that he would relist the item with the same exact description and not charge commission. The buyer tells him no because he wouldn't want an unsuspecting bidder to be in the same predicament he is in. The auctioneer says that there is no predicament, and that the auction was clear, questioning why anyone would submit a card to a grading company when it was short because no company accepts short cards for grade. The auctioneer suggests that he could offer it back to the original consigner or offer to the next two highest bidders.

The buyer calls SGC and speaks to a representative. The representative refutes the auctioneer's statement and says they absolutely accept short cards as long as there aren't the other signs of trimming. He continues that this particular card did not have the normal "strayations", was an angular cut and was "quite short". He added he would have their top two graders look at it and write a detailed letter on letterhead stating why it was trimmed.

The buyer tells the auctioneer that he needs to come up with a better compromise or he will be forced to offer the card for sale to the public following all the rules of "full disclosure". The buyer proposes that the auctioneer buy the card back for $400 and then he can do whatever he wants with the card. The seller doesn't wish to play the waiting game to see if if the bidders will accept. Who knows when the transaction would be completed? The auctioneer comes back by suggesting the buyer was threatening him.

The auctioneer states that the seller has some nerve dictating demands and that this issue was done. The buyer tells the auctioneer that it sounded as if he made his choice. The auctioneer responds by calling the buyer a a**hole, telling the buyer any moron could make money off that card, that he had the card sold for $400+ to the next highest bidder that morning, calls the buyer an "arrogant piece of sh**" and that three lawyers said the buyer threatened him.

My questions:

1) Did the auctioneer act unethically at any point?
2) Did the buyer threaten him? And if so is that illegal?
3) If you were the buyer, what would YOU have done?
4) Do you have any other opinions?
5) What could the buyer expect to get for the card given the rest of the card is VgEx?

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Posted By: dennis

if trimming or card being short is stated in the discription my opinion is that it will not be graded.IT IS SHORT. (my thinking is it has already been rejected,maybe numerous times by different graders)that said,i would decide to bid on card as is. 1) Did the auctioneer act unethically at any point? yes he should have just replied that there was no refunds and stopped there.
2) Did the buyer threaten him? And if so is that illegal? buyer should if unhappy w/card just sell with full disclosure.
3) If you were the buyer, what would YOU have done? sold the card w/full disclosure--but as i said earlier my thought is if "short" is mentioned in discription it is ungradeable,AND I WOULD HAVE BID ONLY ACCEPTING THIS FACT.
4) Do you have any other opinions? grading companys can be wrong too.
5) What could the buyer expect to get for the card given the rest of the card is VgEx? i've seen lots of cards get big bids w/trimmed disclosed

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Posted By: David Vargha

Always "read between the lines". I believe that the seller knew it was trimmed and played fast and loose with a "gray" description. If I believe card I am selling is altered, I will come right out and say so and have done so in the past. If I sell a raw card without disclosure, then I will offer to take it back if it is altered.

I recently won a raw Old Gold Jackie Robinson card that appears to have been trimmed when comparing it against another copy that I have. It is both short in width and appears to me to have a "bow" on the right hand side. The seller said he got it out of a Mastro lot and would be surprised if it were trimmed. I said that I was willing to submit it to PSA or SGC at my cost. He said that if either one said it was trimmed, he would refund me in full with no questions asked. That's the way it should be.

I think we all know who the real "a**hole" is in your scenario.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Would love to know the auction house to stay away from.....

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Posted By: John

I believe the buyer took a chance in this auction. I myself knowing that some grading companies wont grade even oversized cards much less undersized cards, would bid as if I was buying a potentially “trimmed card” regardless of the sellers statements.

The seller however did state that the card was undersized. Therefore I don’t feel the buyer is entitled to a refund. That being said if the seller feels the card was such an easy sell, he should have bought the card back to keep the buyer as a happy customer. Then simply re-sold the card for the same amount or more.

I also feel this is a prime example of where some grading companies fall a little short (no pun intended). These cards were manufactured well over 80-100 yrs ago some cards are just a little off; I can’t imagine quality control was the highest in those days. Therefore I’m sure many cards were off cut, short, large etc. To not grade a card do to min size requirements not being met is silly.

It’s now in the buyer’s hands. If the buyer really also feels that the card is also not trimmed but just happens to fall 1/8 short of a size req. The choice is now to decide on keeping a very nice HOF card of a great player, or tossing it in because it has a slim chance of being put in a plastic holder. I think the buyer will find he will pay twice the amount for a far worse looking card that’s in a plastic holder than the one he currently owns.

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Posted By: BcD

Is your number one clue. It's Lipset*





Would love to know the auction house to stay away from.....

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Posted By: Robert

I don't want to get in trouble with who BcD mentioned because I am banned and he threatened me with law suits but it sounds like him. Definetly buyer beware on his auctions because he overgrades and you get your winnings and find out that you have been scammed.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Then, he called my home while I was out and threatened my fiance' and sent me e-mails stating he would tell every card and coin dealer and auction house he knows I was a "renegger"!

This same guy claims none of his auctions go past 9:00 or 10:00 PM. I was high bidder on a lot at around 3:00 AM two increments below my max. The next day when I was ready to pay, the bid amount suddenly appeared to be my maximum bid! To make a long story short, the lot of Wilson Franks cards sold in the next auction two bids below my max again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that is not shilling, I don't know what is! This "person" also stated I just didn't have the money to pay and was renegging! Hell, my max bid was only $1500. I spent more than that last night buying cards from Wesley (and most I wanted were already sold)!

I thought this type of shilling had been going on for a while with this person, but this one was the last straw! Some of you may think bad of me for not paying for the auction, but it CERTAINLY was not the $$$ - it was the principle with me. It was CERTAINLY the $$$ with this auction house (person)!

BCD can vouch for my statement - I sent him copies of ALL correspondence regarding this matter!

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Posted By: dan mckee

Scott, this exact thing happened to me once but with a different auction house. I still paid for the card because I had to have it and it was a 1 of a kind. Otherwise, I would have done exactly what you did. I felt raped in my situation, but bought because my want for the item out weighed my feeling of being shilled. Dan.

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Posted By: Wesley

The auction description read as follows: ".....the card is definitely not trimmed."

This is a guarantee that the card was not trimmed. When SGC determined the card to have been trimmed, Lew Lipset should have refunded your money in full. Lipset has been around for so long, that he should know better than that.

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Posted By: dan mckee

In Lew's defense, just because SGC said it was trimmed doesn't necessarily mean it is trimmed. Though SGC's vintage graders clearly know how to tell most trimming and they do understand that size doesn't matter, I would still have received a 2nd opinion or several other opinions. Maybe carry it to a show where many vintage dealers are set up. SGC is the best at what they do but anyone can make a mistake. I also unfortunately agree with the time frame, you have had the card in your hand long enough to determine if it was trimmed, that is when it should have been returned. If you act fast in these matters, you have a better chance of a refund. And there is always the risk you took, you bought an ungraded card hoping to get it slabbed I take it? Anyway, if Lew or whoever this seller is, stated the card "is not trimmed" then it is their opinion that it is not trimmed. I would have had 10 reputable vintage collectors/dealers look at it and if all said trimmed, then I would have confronted the seller with my facts. A grading company saying it is trimmed isn't enough for me. Dan.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Dan,

The card was trimmed. I didn't look at it closely enough when I received it because I assumed I didn't have to, because I assumed I was buying from a quality person. I sent it into SGC with 30 other cards. I didn't send it right away because I assumed it would grade, and quite frankly didn't believe I had any reason to have to get a refund within 21 days.

I learned a valuable lesson and for $500 it may end up being worth it.

However, it comes down to ethical practices, respect, and the customer's always right.

I am reminded of Don Johnson - a board poster - and ebay seller under the handle of "spaceops23". I bought an E95 Frank Chance PSA 5 from him for $475.00. It was received at my post office, but I never got it and they couldn't find it. There was evidence of it arriving, but nobody at the PO could locate it. I wrote to Don and explained the situation and asked him if he insured it. He said he didn't and it was one of the very few cards he didn't insure. HE OFFERED TO REFUND MY MONEY IN FULL. There was no hemming and hawing, no name-calling, no excuses, no nothing. Even though he wasn't the one who lost it, he took FULL RESPONSIBILITY and offered to resolve the matter.

When I wrote back to him to explain how moved I was with his generosity, he said, five words to me that I wish everyone would work by. He said, "It's called good customer service."

Well, I did find the Chance card and my point should be obvious.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Andrew, you're obviously 100 percent right. That you didn't immediately send it in to be graded is a ridiculous red herring; how is Lew1 prejudiced by you taking 30 days instead of 5 1to submit it and find out it was trimmed? What would have been fair is for him to have paid to have it sent to PSA and/or GAI after the failure at SGC. If it came back graded, no harm no foul. If it came back trimmed again, a full refund should have been provided. After all, a card encapsulated by a major grading company is an investment; a card with a letter from Lew saying that it's not trimmed is a joke. Why is it that most sellers have to be such aholes? If you sell something, stand behind it! Is that such a hard concept to remember?

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Posted By: John

“After all, a card encapsulated by a major grading company is an investment; a card with a letter from Lew saying that it's not trimmed is a joke.”

Yeah I’m sure these “investments” paid off well for their owners.


In some ways I would take a letter from Ol’ Lew over these guys seal of approval. Grading is an objective art not a science. We rag on grading companies when there wrong and then scramble and cry to sell our cards if we don’t get there “subjective” blessings for grades, trimmed etc.

Andrew there’s no doubt Lipset could have handled it better if what you are saying is how the deal went down. But I can also see his point on some things too.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Yes, John...no doubt. I already said the buyer could have done things differently. But Donald Johnson could have very easily said to me, "You didn't TELL me to insure it, so it's YOUR fault. YOU deal with it."

Many could also say that the auctioneer in my scenario offered a few fair resolutions. However, those resolutions didn't sit well with the buyer, so the auctioneer had an obligation in the name of "good customer service" in my opinion to stand behind his card and satisfy the customer.

Maybe I am being a little naive, but when a card shows THREE major signs of being trimmed...well, what conclusion should you make? If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, guess what? It's a duck!

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Posted By: John

Andrew;

Don’t take what I’m saying the wrong way please. I’m really on your side in many ways I think the seller could have gone the extra mile for you, and in the interest of good customer support and future business it might have very well been the right thing to do.

But the seller has his terms & conditions so I can understand that too.

But your statement makes me have to ask what “three major” signs of trimming are there, can you recognize them or is this what SGC pointed out to you?

I don’t think you took a huge burn; you took a chance on a card that was listed as short. Unfortunately it hasn’t had the outcome you had hoped for. Andrew in the end I think it’s a very nice looking card regardless of what Lipset’s or SGC’s views of the card are. I'd be proud to own it trim or no trim.

P.S. I know the dilemma your having I’ve been in a similar boat myself.

Best Of Luck

John

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

John,

I'm fine. I understand your points, and I agree with them. I just don't wnat people to lose sight of customer service. That's all.

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Posted By: BcD

That is pretty funny.
1) he wont disclose the phantom attorneys I promise you~

2) the only reason anyone would ever need to talk to three attorneys about this is because deep down inside they know they committed acts of impropriety and they have concerns about covering their ass.

3)looks like he is now the victim! But only to himself in reality~

4) if any fool can sell the card for $400 then refer this fool to the masses to sell it for you instead of cursing at you! Post his letter for all of us to read.

Dan-you are wrong in that he would not except an opinion of ANY grading service,grader,collector,relative or forensic paper expert anywhere,anytime and you know it!

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Posted By: Julie

1/8th inch is a LOT off a N29! I know the borders are all white at the edges, but still-why did you bid on the thing? "1/8 inch short, but definitely not trimmed" is practically impossible with a N29!

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

...I did a very stupid thing and bid on an issue that I know nothing about. One-eighth of an inch didn't mean squat to me. What did mean something to me was this, "It's definitely not trimmed." I know I shouldn't have bid NOW. But when I was bidding in this auction I was bidding with the idea that the card would grade and that was that. I acknowledge I messed up. But that's not the issue.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Look, Lew advertised the card as not trimmed. It came back from SGC as trimmed. Definitley not conclusive; however, if it came back from PSA and GAI also as trimmed then it's trimmed. And no matter how much you guys rag on the grading companies the simple fact remains that the majority of the vintage card buying public relies on them when making a major purchase. And by Lew claiming that a card that HE is selling is not trimmed after all the major graders say that it is, well, he's then no different than Dave Bushing selling his a piece of wood that came off of his garage door and providing a LOA that it is actually Black Betsy....

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I've been lucky with Lew for the most part. One lot I won a few years ago from him included two 19th century cards. They were both raw. One was an N28 HOF and the other was an N300 HOF. Yes, the described grades were a bit generous and he noted that the grading services stated that there was color added to the N300, although he didn't believe that to be the case.

The nice part about this lot was the lot was "sold as is" with no returns. I figure the bidding on the lot was minimal because of this. I got lucky because the N28 made a decent grade but he N300 came back as "color added" as I figured it would. In any case I figured the N300 HOF cost me nothing when the value of the N28 was taken into consideration.

I'm not defending Lew on this but his auction rules state that "we do not accept the opinions of third party graders" and he does provide a detailed return policy.

Here's a cool story for the books. I won a card in a Mastro auction (this was at least 5 years ago I'm guessing) and put it aside for about 6 months before sending it in to get graded. The card came back with eveidence of trimming. I thought it was a bit short but figured it was legit because of the source from which it was purchased. Believe this or not - Just for the heck of it I called Mastronet and I think I spoke with Kevin (although I can't be sure now). He said that he was very sorry and wanted to know what they could do about it to make it right. We came up with an amicable settlement and we were both satisfied with the end result - this was 6 MONTHS AFTER the auction ended. Wow!!!

Andrew, I'm sorry to hear about the horror story but for what it's worth you learned a lesson and by sharing the story others might learn something from it.

It would be nice if you were able to get the card labeled as authentic. This would at least place a nicer valuation on the card and you'd probably be able to recoup any losses on the card prior to having the "authentic" label.

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Posted By: Julie

auctioneer's words!" But you gotta know the card you're bidding on. As I remember, Lew has nice big scans of each item in hius auctions--unless it's a multiple item lot. So, if you'd had some familiarity with the set, you should have known. Not a good idea to buy a card from an unknown set in an auction. Better at a show, where you can hold the card in your hand--and ask the dealer to see 3-4 commons from the same set.

But--that's not your question. The answer to your question is no, you don't get your money back. Auctioneer says card is NOT trimmed (even if it's an INCH short!), and he doessn't accept the word of third parties...that means you bought an untrimmed card.

Don't think I'd do THAT again...

And what SGC said seems to be that the edges were too thick to be naturally worn..in other words, trimmed...

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Posted By: runscott

I'm with Julie on this. The policy was stated clearly. Given that, if you felt uncertain about the card when it arrived in the mail, you should have contacted the seller. If it was Lew Lipset, he would have taken it back based on YOUR opinion - I've done this before with him and never had a problem.

You could also have done a search on "Lipset" on this board, found another thread or two with the same comments from the same people, and made your bidding decision prior to the auction.

Regarding shilling, I've won auctions from Lew at several bids below my max - won a 6-card lot at about $2,300 with a max bid over $4,000. Perfect opportunity for shilling if it was going to happen. I also once sent a card back with a light crease that was graded EX - he emailed back AGREEING with me and said that an EX card can never have a crease, apologized and sent an immediate refund. Perhaps I'm just lucky, or perhaps my own policy of not trying to aggravate and piss off auction houses has been working?

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Posted By: Colt McClelland

I know Lipset is a long-time, respected dealer. However, I have bought two lots from him over the past 2 years for a total cost of about $5,000. Unfortunately, I would have to put him in about the same class as Larry Fritch when it comes to grading - you can just bank on the fact that almost every card you get from him is graded at least one grade too high. LF is probably closer to two grades off, while LL is more like one grade off. You just have to know this going in and bid accordingly. The trimming issue is a bit different, but I agree with Dan that a second or third opinion may get you a different result, particularly if the card didn't look trimmed to you. Frankly, the only people I really trust when buying raw cards site unsees are some of the members of this forum.

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Posted By: leon

We've had many discussions about this on the board (old grading standards grading vs new grading standards). I think the old timers (I ain't too young but this is about card collecting) have different thoughts on grades than the new grading company standards. Twenty years ago an erased pencil mark on the back of a blank backed, otherwise pristine card, didn't take it from nrmt to gd-vg. Most old timers timers don't grade as strict as the grading companies of today. I am not debating whether they should or shouldn't but they just don't. Recently I sold a card I bought from Lew about 5 years ago, it was an N333 I bought for $450. It looked ex and was sold that way. A few years later I sent it in to SGC and it came back "evid of trim". I didn't even tell Lew...there was no reason to. Since it didn't fit my collection anymore I sold it.....for about $700.....and as "trimmed but beautiful"......I think if you buy a card that is advertised as short then you are taking your chances on it being able to be graded......regards

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Posted By: dan mckee

"the simple fact remains that the majority of the vintage card buying public relies on them when making a major purchase"

I guess I am in the minority along with most of the long time friends I have acquired over the last 37 years in this hobby. This statement should have "buying" replaced with "investing" because buying could mean collecting here and the collectors I know do NOT rely on grading companies!

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Posted By: dan mckee

BCD - I am not saying he would have accepted the findings, I am just saying that is what I would have done before blasting him on this board. If you present the seller with several RESPECTED collectors/dealers and he then blows you off, F-bombs you to death, and refuses a return, then come on and blast away.

Also, if there were 3 obvious signs of trimming, the card should not have been sent to SGC and the seller should have been contacted immediately. Sending a known trimmed card to SGC, well that is an interesting thing to do.

Andrew, I do not think you deserved to be possibly abused by any seller so that is wrong as far as being good customer service.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Buying raw and assuming something will grade is ok. Giving up after only submitting it once is insane. I had a card in a PSA 3 holder. I thought it deserved a 4 (I know, I am old-school) so I popped it and resubmitted it. It was returned as trimmed. I just laughed at the idiot since it was popped out of his holder a few hours prior. I submitted it to another service and it came back a bit lower, then resubmitted it to PSA for a 3rd time and got the 3 back. Damn good thing we rely on the grading services for buying!!

3 posts in a row! remind you of anyone???

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Posted By: Rhett

I hate to say it, but the fact remains that the auction description stated that the card was short (but it was the auctioneers opinion that it wasn't trimmed). And to be honest, apart from Old Judges, I have NOT seen many short cards residing in SGC holders-regardless of what they say they will grade. In instances like the one with the auction house, generally the bidding is sparse, and if somebody wants to take the chance on the item, it is usually almost implied that it is at their own risk. I am not saying that Lew handled things perfect, or even the way he should have. However, if the card had come back fine from the grading company, would you have shared your profits with Lew? It seems to me that you took a chance on a possibly trimmed card, and it didn't pay off. It was Lew's opinion that the card was factory cut short, SGC believes it was trimmed--I can't say (without seeing it) that one is for sure correct over the other.

This is NOT what happened in this case, but I sold something on ebay a while back clearly listed as trimmed, but when the buyer got the card, he waited a few months, then tried to get it graded. When it was rejected, he wanted his money back. Needless to say, I was pissed, and felt no obligation to give him money. Lew may be feeling the same way about this case.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I agree with Rhett 100% ! Rhett is under NO obligation at that point to refund that guy and actually, would be a nut to do so. Though Rhett did state that it was trimmed. SGC has not graded some of my 30s cards that were short because they didn't meet minimum size requirements, they are NOT trimmed and SGC recognizes that they are not trimmed.

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Posted By: AParks

I would like to thank everyone for responding to this thread as I tried to get opinions on this scenario in an effort to learn how to do things better in the future and how to avoid this type of situation. I did many things incorrectly, it sounds like, and I now have some rules that I need to take more seriously:

1) Stay away from short cards.
2) Do the homework on the card I want to bid on before I bid.
3) Look at, study and observe an unslabbed card the day it arrives if purchased in an auction.
4) Read the fine print of a seller's rules before I bid and expect to follow them.
5) Do not put ALL accountability on the grading companies.

I learned a great deal from this situation and from talking to some of you in private and in e-mail; it sounds that some of you would not be at all disappointed to receive the card I received for the price I paid. Thanks again.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Dan, if your cards are not trimmed and SGC agrees they are not trimmed then why won't they grade them? Why wouldn't they change their minimum size requirements on a card if they agree that it is unaltered?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think you can even go a step further when you bid on a raw card and that is to tell the auction house that you plan to send the card in if you win it to a grading service. I've had several people request this in my auctions and I simply hold the consignor's money until I hear back from the winner. Once I pay the consignor, it's a whole different complicated mess. Buyers have an obligation to communicate this. The rules were fair and square and clearly when you buy a card listed as an 1/8" small you are incurring an enormous risk. And yes, ALWAYS read every auction house's rules before you bid. That is an automatic!

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Posted By: Wesley

Sorry you have to go through this horrible experience in dealing with Lipset, Andrew.

This is not the old grading standard versus new grading standard debate. The man guaranteed in his auction that the card has not been tampered with.

".....the card is definitely not trimmed."

The card is either trimmed or not trimmed. Either someone took a razor blade to the card or not. There is not grey area here. We can all agree that even by old collector standards, trimmed means trimmed.

If the card is trimmed Lipset should refund your money in full.

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Posted By: BCD

what,seven years ago or so! Short right?? WE did not talk about a grading service at all. I measured it after it looked small,you compared it to the Zerox and other cards and took it back! That was the end of it. Reality-Lipset
has never been Mr.Customer Service award winner nor honest. He has a long history of this kind of stuff,just call collectors privately and ask them then post a poll.
Rhett and Dan,you both miss the point! Let Lew prove to ANY grading company that this card is factory "short" and not trimmed! If he was in court and SGC or PSA graders were willing to testify that his expertise is in question by them I am sure a judge will provide Andrew with a provision for a full refund. Sadly,unless big money was involved,hiring Rocky,Steve or Shawn would be to costly as expert witnesses. Too bad! This is where Lipset would have a reality check on just who knows what compared to him and he would be sending Parks the money back just like Barry did for me with only a sigh on Barry's part of disappointment..


~DAN,ASK PARKS TO SEND YOU LEW'S LETTER THAN TELL ME YOU STILL FEEL THIS WAY??? IN YOUR CASE,PRETEND YOU GOT THIS LETTER FROM JOE ORLANDO CONCERNING THE MAGEE CARD AND TELL ME HOW YOU'D FEEL.YOU WOULD BE HITTING THE CEILING OVER IT!

BCD - I am not saying he would have accepted the findings, I am just saying that is what I would have done before blasting him on this board. If you present the seller with several RESPECTED collectors/dealers and he then blows you off, F-bombs you to death, and refuses a return, then come on and blast away. ( THEN IT'S BOMBS AWAY BY YOU'RE VERY WORDS DAN~ READ THE LETTERS**)

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Posted By: barrysloate

I remember that card, and I wish I kept it. Even a little small, it was a beauty. Wasn't that before the era of the grading services?

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Posted By: BCD

but ironically,even short, I wish I had kept it too! LOL~

but we both know$ why!

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Posted By: dan mckee

The seller's letter to Aaron is not my business, I am just working off of this thread. For the record, Joe Orlando was very nice to me on the phone when he called me, after he received the verdict!

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Posted By: BCD

unless he talked to three lawyers first! LOL~

"The seller's letter "

dan,you meant to write Lipset-not "seller" as well. But then,I know why you would never mention his name either. You know damn well who it is!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Not having seen the card, I don't know who's opinion on the trimming is correct, the seller's or SGC's. But Andrew obviously couldn't have told it was trimmed, or he wouldn't have submitted it. And the seller thought it was un-trimmed. Who's to say that SGC's opinion is any more valid than the seller? Certainly the seller has the right to maintain that his own opinion about trimming is at least as valid as that of 3rd-party grading companies...heck, he basically said that in his policies.

Does the buyer have the right to say "I don't care about your opinion or your policy - if I send it to a 3rd party grader we both will abide by their decision." ? I don't think so.

(edited to add my first and last name)

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for adding your name to your post. A lot of folks don't want ANYONE posting anonymously on our board. We have discussed this ad nauseum and we are set on board policy at this time. If anyone doesn't know the policies they can look look them up in the Forum Faq's......take care

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Posted By: Wesley

Scott, You wrote, "Who's to say that SGC's opinion is any more valid than the seller?"

Whether a card is nearmint or excellent condition may be a matter of opinion. Whether part of a card has been tampered with or altered is not subjective and is not a matter of opinion. In this case, the question is whether of not the card has been trimmed. There is no grey area. Either someone hacked off part of the card after the production process or someone did not.

In this case there have been two opinions rendered on the card sold in the auction. Lipset says in his auction description that ".....the card is definitely not trimmed." On the other hand, SGC has pointed out three different reasons why they opine that the card has been trimmed. Which opinion is more valid? Who knows? The one thing that I am mindful of is that Lipset has a financial interest in standing by his opinion, while SGC has no financial interest in stating that the card is trimmed.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

All "this card is definitely not trimmed" means is that Lew Lipset's opinion was that the card was not trimmed. It is not and cannot reasonably be construed as a guarantee that a third party will grade it, and the final price probably reflected that uncertainty. I do not think Lipset was under any obligation to take it back unless you could prove he KNEW the card was trimmed and misrepresented it, or unless you could somehow demonstrate OBJECTIVELY that it was trimmed. From what I have heard of him that sounds pretty unlikely. All that said, he could have been a bit more diplomatic in his post-auction conduct, he sounds awfully combative for a hobby icon.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

About this Hobby Icon's dealings, while in a NY card shop. I will not mention them (if Brian wants to tell, that is up to him). From what BCD has told me, a lot he has seen first hand from some of the Hobby's "Icons" would make you sick!!!!!

However, all dealers/auction houses are certainly not like that. If I was a betting man, I would not care to bet any amount of money I have that as far as these auction house "Icons" go, that Rob Lifson is the absolute most honest of all and seems like an extremely nice gentleman to boot (at least my dealings with him). I know I am getting a little off topic here, but Mr. Lifson seems to go above and beyond the call of duty most all the time for the customer and that really does mean something - just ask Andrew Parks!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

1. The card was described as 1/8" narrow. HUGE red flag when you are buying to have it slabbed. We all know that the slabbers often will not slab a card if it is short or narrow, even if the card is unaltered and original. The buyer assumed that risk.

2. The auctioneer has a stated return period; the buyer did not comply with it. The buyer knew at the time he bid that the card did not measure up. How does the buyer not act for six weeks knowing there is a short fuse on returns and a problematic card, then reasonably expect the auctioneer to take back the card? Auctioneers ain't Land's End; there is no perpetual return policy.

3. The auctioneer has a stated policy of refusing to accept the opinions of 3rd party graders. The buyer's complaint is founded on a 3rd party opinion about the card. I don't think it is fair to ask a seller with a clearly stated policy refusing to accept the determinations of 3rd party graders to refund money based on a 3rd party grader's opinion.

4. All of the slabbers--PSA, GAI and yes even our beloved SGC--make mistakes on cards. I had a beautiful T218 rejected as trimmed one month and slabbed an 84 on resubmittal. Unless someone saw the card get trimmed, all of it is opinion. If we are talking about Lew's auction here, and I had to bet as to who would qualify better in court to testify as an opinion expert on cards, I'd bet on Lew over anyone working at SGC.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

as a card expert in a court case!

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Certainly there is a factual answer to this question and if we knew it, opinions to the contrary would not matter. But, alas, we don't, so that makes it a matter of opinion.

How was the universe created? There is certainly a factual answer to this question as well. Uh oh...we don't know it...leaving us with only opinions once again.

How about those wavy 1909 OBAK's? ...hand-cut at the factory or later? Again, a factual answer exists, but do we know it? Opinions must suffice.

Did Babe Ruth really call his shot? Hey, there is a factual answer here as well!!!! but heck if I know what it is.

...and last, but certainly not least: Is that Gretzky Wagner trimmed?

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Posted By: Wesley

If that is the case, maybe we shouldn't be so hard on any ebay seller who maintain his cards are legitimate and untrimmed even when there is a SGC or PSA opinion to the contrary. Hopefully, we can tell to a degree of certainty more definite than the beginning of the universe example that you used.

Even if you are correct and Lipset is a more accurate grader than SGC, I still cannot respect any dealer who treats a customer the way Lipset treated Andrew.

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Posted By: Andrew Parks

Check out the scan here. The left border is what SGC was concerned about most.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5205770716&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1