Walter Johnson M101-4/5 fake issue

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

In a private email I just sent to Anne:

Hi Anne,
Since Darren did not buy your card from ebay I am going to delete the thread about it. I have to use my judgment here. I do believe there are some issues but the bottom line is Darren didn't buy your card from ebay and I feel it's a reprint anyway. I don't think your name popping up on search engines is going to hurt you anymore than the negative feedbacks you have on ebay. I have to go with my board on this one until I see more....again, I still think your card from ebay is a fake. I don't believe you have done anything intentionally wrong but that is besides the point.....please call me if you wish to discuss it anymore. You have my number.
kind regards
leon

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Posted By: dan mckee

Aw Leon, no fair, boo hoo.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Concerning google and yahoo searches, duly note that neither the woman's name nor that seller's id was EVER posted ANYWHERE on this board until Anna posted yesterday. Using her name or the seller's id, no one would have ever found the original thread, nor this board.

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Posted By: robert a

Unfortunately for anna, since she made her initial post here, her name would probably come up more on search engines since there are now several posts concerning this situation. However, like Leon stated, it's probably no worse then bad feedback which the seller already has.

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Posted By: Julie

Some of my juiciest and goofiest posts are there, my schedule at the Asian Art Museum, a photo of me in 2nd grade, a thank you from a Richard III scholar, a review of a book for Amazon.com (only 2 of 4 readers found it helpful...sniff...)

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I beleive that if something is posted online then removed within a day or so, it won't appear in any search engines. It takes a while for the search engines to 'read' the contents of the internet. And, as the seller's id has still never been posted on this board, I think the "search engine scandal" is a red hearing.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

OK guys and girl..I spoke with Anne on the phone again.....we had the wrong ebay auction for this issue. It was really:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5162533171

and we still thought this E135 was a reprint. We also had a thread about it......the whole issue is that Dr.Darren never got back with Anne for her to give a refund....she said he wrote very upset emails and said he was sending it in to be graded and he never got back to her. She figured, like anyone, that the card got graded and all was well. That's why she contacted the board and myself about removing the old thread......She also admitted that her son initially said they would not give a refund but she reprimanded him and said that of course they would, it the card was not good. She got this card from a Baltimore collector by the name of Bob Flitter. She said he sets up at shows in Chantilly Va and Arundel (sp?) Mills, if anyone might know him. SO the real story is does anyone know where Dr. Darren is? Did he maybe take a break from the hobby after all of this? regards all

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Ebay seller armee48
February 9 2005 at 2:12 PM Darren J. Duet (Login drdduet)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I purchased an E135 Walter Johnson from armee48 on ebay recently using BIN for $400. I received the card on 2/7/05 and after looking at it I'm convinced it's a fake. It's Ebay item #5162533171.

I've notified the seller and asked for a refund upon return of the card and he replied, "i do not give refunds."

My next course of action is to send it off to SGC and if they agree that it is fake I'll press charges of fraud. I have saved the email correspondence in which the seller assures of the cards authenticity and condition prior to my purchase. I also have the listing in print and on file.

I will scan the card in tonight when I get home.

Any help or advice will be appreciated.

Darren


[edited to add link]


This message has been edited by bcornell on Feb 9, 2005 3:00 PM



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Author Reply
Glenn
(Login gscheyd) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 2:14 PM


Did you use PayPal?



davidcycleback
(Login davidcycleback) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 2:22 PM


If it gets to you going through the serious motions of pressing charges, you will more than likely get a refund right away. People don't like the thought of legal proceedings against them, especially when they know they are in the wrong.

"I don't give refunds" is a bogus and irrelevant statement. If you sell a fake, you give a refund. It's known as the law.




Darren J. Duet
(Login drdduet) Paypal February 9 2005, 2:40 PM


Yes I did use paypal.




leon
(Premier Login leonl) Darren February 9 2005, 2:46 PM


For what it's worth I looked at the auction too and the artificial looking aging is a big concern. I am positive by holding it I could tell if it were real. If you have the card now, and lay it flat in your hand, you should see uneven gloss on it. My guess is this card will feel "rough" too which is not the way a card from 1917 should feel. It should feel smooth to the touch. This seller has a lot of good feeback and I would be fairly sure if you press the legal issue it won't make it to court. If it's a fake, and the scan looks that way, and was sold as an original (which it was), then that is fraud. Fraud over the internet is a federal crime. You might give a link to this forum and see what happens. regards...and a link...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5162533171




davidcycleback
(Login davidcycleback) Remember, when the seller of a forgery or fraud says February 9 2005, 2:54 PM


"I don't guarantee the authenticity" or "I don't give refunds," the correct response is:
"Sure you do. And I bet the judge would agree with me."



Glenn
(Login gscheyd) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 3:13 PM


The reason I ask about PayPal is that their dispute resolution process can only be set in motion within 30 days of payment. I found that out the hard way. If you paid with a credit card, you can go through your credit card company, but otherwise you may want to notify PayPal so they can begin an invesitagtion, and you'll have to do that within the next few weeks. In other words, don't wait for the card to come back from SGC.




todd (nolemmings)
(Login taslegal) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 3:57 PM


The card looks fake all the way around to me. It looks too white--all of the e135s I've owned and the vast majority of what I've seen are creamier colored. Leon's right about holding it in your hand to check, although I have a reprint set where the gloss is even. That set carries a reprint line in the bottom right corner of the reverse--does your card show erasure there?

I'd try the paypal route first. For one thing, it's not entirely accurate to claim fraud just because the card is fake or reprinted. It's misrepresentation, but the key is whether he knew it was fake and advertised it othwerwise anyway. If not, you could still assert a civil claim for negligent misrepresentation or breach of implied warranty, but you won't get anywhere with a criminal claim. Also, my experience at least in AZ is that no law enforcement agency is going to spend much (or any) time chasing down a few hundred dollar loss, unless you can show them (rather convincingly) that there's a pattern of criminal activity and not isolated conduct.

Good luck!



leon
(Premier Login leonl) Hey Todd February 9 2005, 4:51 PM


No biggie....but I had said it should be "uneven" not even.....so far in my short addicted career I haven't seen faked uneven toning that looked real....sort of like fake granite....it looks fake and is "even"....(man made)....regards




Darren J. Duet
(Login drdduet) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 5:05 PM


Thanks for the help and advice everyone--I'll let you know where I go from here.





Foster S. Jeter
(Login fsjeter) Paypal will only February 9 2005, 5:26 PM


call this a dispute with the seller. They are good about doing chargebacks if the items are not received. You probably won't have much luck with Paypal in this instance but it never hurts to file a claim.

Scott




Todd (nolemmings)
(Login taslegal) sorry Leon February 9 2005, 5:55 PM


I misread your first post--my bad. And yes, the fake granite description is a good one. I would also add that the fakes/reprints are a little blurrier in the photo, although the authentic ones aren't exactly stunningly clear either.
Todd




dan mckee
(Login danmckee) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 5:56 PM


Card is bad. If you paid with paypal and used a MASTERCARD or VISA. Return the POS with signature confirmation. Then stop payment through your CC. Paypal won't help you at all. as lond as he sent you something, they do not consider it fraud. You can buy a car and receive a brick in the mail and that is not fraud to paypal. If you used your CC, you will be refunded through that. Send the worthless POS back and get a signature. Or send it to me and I will deliver it in person as I am 15 minutes from Timonium MD. Dan.




warshawlaw
(Login boxingcardman) paypal protection is worthless February 9 2005, 6:34 PM


if you used a CC, return it and protest the charge. where is this dirtbag seller?


shellyjaffe
(Login shellyjaffe) Re: Ebay seller armee48 February 9 2005, 6:41 PM


No where in the discription does it say no refunds. Go to pay pal and start the dispute. In the dispute make him aware that you will be going to police for fraud. I think you will get a better responce.



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[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

Leon,

All I can say is that you are without the very best Forum moderator that exists in any Forum. The fact that you were on top of the thread the minute you saw that there was an issue and offered to take your own personal time to figure out what was going on speaks wonders. I don't think I would have been as kind.
<br />

Good Work Leon!

DJ

Edit to add after reading the above post: DJ is confused.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Arundal Mills is a huge shopping Mall and holds a show. If you find something older than 1995 for sale, you have found vintage there. I have lived and collected in baltimore for 37 years. Dan.

Edited to fix my ignorance.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

ya know I luv ya man....but it doesn't matter if it was good or bad. She offered a refund and he never got back to her....is what she is telling me...and I have no reason to doubt her. I would also like to see what Dr.Darren would have to say about all of this. Just to get both sides. If he is out there, and not currently attending the board, can someone ask him? regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh K.

Was the other Johnson (the one we thought was originally the topic of anna's post) sold by Anna as well? The post above makes an assumption that there were two fake Johnsons and Two ebay ids, but Im not sure there is any link between the two sellers. The seller never gave us the other link - it was found via the search function and we all assumed it was the correct link.

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Posted By: leon

I didn't really want to keep this going that much but to answer the question it was not this seller in the other thread Dan was mentioning. We had the wrong seller and wrong fake card. When I asked her about her 98.5% ebay rating she said it wasn't her. I verified it wasn't her. She has 99.5% and only wanted to make the situation right for Darren on this E135.........regards

edited for spelling

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

The card I purchased from anna's son some month's ago is a fake. Officially it is an ungradeable reprint. Anna was gracious in accepting her son's responsibility and did offer a refund of $400 --the BIN price. I did refer her to this board for research, but from what I can tell that is not her interest.

I did not claim her refund and considered the transaction a loss. Why? I'm not in the business of wasting my time on such negligent affairs. I've seen outrageous charges for S&H, but what I would need to charge for my time and preparation for S&H for an item due to someone's negligence would equate to a cost greater than the purchase price.

The card did not grade, is a fake, and is worthless. I'm out $400 and more importantly an authentic E135 W. Johnson.

Thank you Leon for your patience and diligence in this matter, IN THE FUTURE REFER HER TO ME.

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Posted By: leon

I have her contact info at home and will forward it to you this evening (if she has not emailed you by then). I believe she wants to make good on the issue.....at least that is what she told me on the phone. I told her what I thought happened....and it is exactly what happened....you got a little frustratated and blew it off....the darn thing couldn't have been graded unless it was graded as a reprint and worthless......take care and thanks for getting back to us. AFTER she makes it right I will delete the thread from February...as I feel that is warranted.....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Gotcha Leon, my bust. I was lost and thought both were her, sorry. Now I am really lost! The Dr.'s time in packing up and returning the fake card will cost him more than $400 ??? Holy cow, I am in the wrong profession. Kudos to Anne for offering a refund. But we have a contradiction here, she says it graded and he says it didn't? Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Dan- She said that Dr.Darren was going to send it in to be graded....and he has confirmed that he said that. Since it was an obvious reprint my guess is that he (Hi Darren) just got fed up with the whole thing, and the time involved for sending it to be graded and returned etc etc..., was what wasn't worth his $400.00.....I sort of do understand that. Therefore it never did get graded. No one has actually said it WAS graded...just that it was "going" to be graded.....sheesh...I feel like a bouncy ball....back and forth back and forth later

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Oh ok, that makes sense about the grading. I still can't get over the $400. It would be principle for me at that point. Maybe that is just me, Dan.

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Posted By: david

lets see 5 minutes to stick a fake card in an envelope address the letter and put a stamp on it. that comes out to 4800 dollars an hour worth of his time to send the card back for a refund, which comes out to almost 200,000 dollars per week, or about 100 million a year. this guy must be some dr. perhaps he is cloning four arods and a jeter a year and that is how he makes his money

[Archive]

Posted By: Darren J. Duet

Leon,
I did not get a little frustrated, I was angry as hell. I will no longer purchase antique cards from sellers I have not done successful business previously and that irritates me. Even though the seller's mother in this case offered a refund it wasn't until I threatened legal action that she did so. This incident was sucking my time away from me and after Anna began to see my point is when I decided that this was not intentional but negligent, and it became easier for me to let it go.

Dan is right. This is a case of principle. For me, I must let it go and had. I bought a card that was advertised as VG/EX authentic, the card was a fair conditioned fake. I initially informed the seller and requested refund, I was denied and sent irate emails questioning who was I to know the difference. I posted on this board. I responded to the sellers refusals with threats of legal action. Seller's mother got involved. She wanted to know why I believed the card to be fake, I asked what made the seller think it was authentic. She continued to question my "authority" on the subject. I referred her to this board for education and pressed the legal issue. She then offered a refund, but the original seller did not.

I judged the sellers mother to be reasonable and let the whole thing go due to its drain. Now it's back and I'll quell it.

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Posted By: Julie

the original seller, and his mom. I'm sure they've learned a lot already. I sure can't afford to spend $400 on nothing!

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Posted By: Tim Mayer

i think you give these people too much credit...

she spent 3 days complaining and crying over an apology that obviously wasn't due to her..her son gives Darren a hard time, she bust chops getting us to prove to her that its a fake...yada yada yada..

bottomline , ITS FAKE,

she should send him his money back immediately, without any further effort or time on Darrens part...

thats it,,screw her son ( obviously a con man) screw her ( if not a con woman, then naive,,and I don't buy the nice lady routine,,,con people come off as nice people)

she should send the money, as now she definately knows its a fake,,,Darren should scream at the top of his lungs shes a fake,,and give her bad feedback..

thats it to me..send him the money immediately, or your a thief as you took money for an object you know is fake....

thats the right thing to do,,but it won't get done, as these people are obviously not going to do the right thing..

oh yeah, prove me wrong Anna and send Darren his check now,,,

I will keep checking this post to see that you did the right thing...

I am holding my breath as we speak...

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Posted By: Darren J Duet

No communication, no check.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Imagine that! How sad. Leon, give Darren Miss Riteous' phone number!

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Posted By: leon

he can get a hold of her......she still says she will offer the return of the card, fyi....(so her email said yesterday).....and I said I was going to stay out of the middle of it, right ?? regards