FroJoy Set on Ebay - Opinions Please

[Archive]

Posted By: jackgoodman

May I ask for opinions on this FroJoy offering? Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5190398291&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Thomas

I have bought many items from this seller and they have all been fine. I have also had this expirience with PSA and don't understand why they don't ask for more time when they are out of holder inserts. I guess they don't want to go over the time and give out free or reduced grading fees.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Just curious why they were not then sent to SGC?

[Archive]

Posted By: RIchard LLOYD

He's one of the BEST DEALERS I have bought from!!!
... and these grading companies need
to step up to the plate on these FRO JOY's..
Best

[Archive]

Posted By: Glen V

I've called SGC, PSA, and GAI. Nobody grades FroJoys.

[Archive]

Posted By: jackgoodman

Thanks everyone.

[Archive]

Posted By: DJ

I believe GAI will slab these.

A graded 8.5 sold in a Lelands auction for $600 late last year.

DJ

Edited to add photo:

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I've won many cards & other items from Jon Richmond (jonsstats)
since 1999. He is one of ebay's best. I finally got to meet him
personally at the National in A/C and he's a real credit to the
hobby.

Bid with Confidence.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Most of the fake Ruth Portrait #1 cards have those two dots in the upper right corner of the picture border. Also, there is just not enough clarity in the pics.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Here's a pic of what looks like a real Ruth Fro Joy #1 from the Old Cardboard website. Notice the better clarity when looking at his eyes & eyebrows.


http://www.oldcardboard.com/f/ice-cream/fro-joy/fro-joy.asp?cardsetID=1045


Here's the link to the eBay reprints.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5190398291&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh Evans

no way
Josh

[Archive]

Posted By: will watson

counterfeit

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I know Jon very well and personally. He sets up at the National, is a homey (San Antonino with John B) and regardless he will make it right if there is an issue. He is also a full time dealer and one of the few brick and mortar businesses for cards left. Not that it matters but he's also one of the funniest guys I know and I am sure I will spend some more time with him at this years National. He usually deals in a tad bit newer stuff (and has had a lot of older stuff before too) and I will be a little surprised if he is fooled by these. But hey.....I am sending the 2 Ruth cards I got off of ebay back today so who knows. I guess in my defense I would say that in about 5 seconds, after having these 2 cards in hand, I knew they weren't good. That's the reason I think these "might" be ok. Because he has these in hand.. We'll see......regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I own both real & fake Fro Joy's. There is no way those are authentic.

[Archive]

Posted By: jamie

The seller got the original scrapbook from a low-rated Ebay seller for $374. I was watching it considering slipping a bid in but there were too many red flags about it. The current seller may be a stand up guy but he's looking for profit on a quick flip and may not have done his homework.

The original auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5180032611

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I agree Jamie....we all make mistakes but it's how they are handled that seperates winners from losers. I stand by what I said about Jon but he certainly could have made a mistake......regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Sounds like I should go check out his store, due to your positive comments. I'm only 50 miles from San Antonio. I dont know of anything in Austin. I'll send him an email via eBay, & find out where he is. Maybe he'll give you a discount for the referral!

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

Reprints

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

I have an original set and I honestly can't tell from the scans. I had a gentleman mail me a full sheet he found in an antique shop several years ago and I had to pull out my originals to confirm that his was real. Some of the black and white fakes are so good that you just can't tell w/o originals next to them. Knowing Jon well, my vote is that they are either good, or so darn close that he can't tell w/o a set of originals in hand. Either way, I am sure he won't stick anyone, he is a class act. Dan mckee.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Jon is a class act. I just spoke to him. He's ending the auction now and sending me the cards (not that I'm an expert but might know a tad more than he about these) so I should have them to look at tomorrow. I asked him to put one in his hand and "feel" the texture of the paper, and lay it flat in his palm and look for the uneven gloss. He said he still couldn't tell for sure so he'd just send them to me. If everyone acted the way he does this hobby would be a much better place....regards

btw...I have some ungraded real ones to compare to also...

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

I offered Jon to mail them to me as well, I guess he went with the expert. I was going to tell him they were fake, than buy them for a song. dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

He is always on top of things.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

You are right Scott, he always seems to beat me to the punch. I haven't figured out if I am that slow or he is just that fast.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

are just soooooo wrong Everytime I snipe on ebay and come back I see good ole r337 as the winner..... always on my tail.....and I sure ain't no expert....but do think I can tell a fake, when holding it, at this point...now get off my arse.... later

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

That R337 character is a pain. Never uses his ID, I have tried to get that name so i could drop th "man" part. maybe I will change "man" to "punk"

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

to try to 'take him out' around DC next week...............

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Tom suckered me with the word "beer" !!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

Nuh-uh.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

My initial thought, and belief, is that these are vintage reprints cut from a reprinted ad piece. They do have something like a gloss on the front, not the back, and it DOESN'T look uneven as it should. The paper doesn't feel "smooth" enough to be 80'ish years old either. I am going to take them home this evening and have these in one hand and a real one along side and then render a final verdict. (not that I am an expert). I spoke with Jon again and he reiterated that he would never intentionally mislead someone and from all of the evidence with these cards it was compelling. My guess is that the envelope, from '27-'28, had real cards in it, as stated, and then were sold and replaced by these somewhere along the way. Folks should not rush to judge ebayers without all of the facts. Just as Jon is doing, if I made/make a mistake, I will take care of it ....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Here's what I think is a good one I have had, now I'm not so positive but still think it's ok, and one of them from Jon. I lost my 10x but they both look pretty similar under a 6x. The dot patterns look the same and the white border areas don't have any dots in them. The gloss is even pretty close. However, the newer looking one does not have black "ink looking" spots in the background, from the old film (maybe), and the telltale white spot next to his head has been filled in. It also looks a little too dark in some areas compared to the real one. The back is printed the wrong way but I've seen that on many other cards too. The card's have about the same thickness. Quite honestly from these I don't blame the grading companies for not grading them. I do think the ones from ebay are suspect but I am not as sure as I was before I held the other one next to it(them). My wife thinks the newer looking one(s) look too white on the borders, too dark in the pic area, and don't have those little black squiggly lines (dots) in the shaded areas. I'm surprised it's this close though....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

You guys were some active little suckers last night. This thread got bumped way down. I would sort of like a few opinions on these last pics I posted last night. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

Leon - if the scans you posted were of the same quality/resolution as the portrait I posted prior to yours, I could give you an opinion. As it stands, both scans look a bit washed out.

Not taking anything away from you, but if I were holding the portrait in my hand, I could tell if it was real or not. I haven't ever sat down with you and studied cards, but my opinion is that if you aren't sure if it's real, then it is NOT.

But post a hi-res scan of the portrait please.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I don't think my $40 scanner will do any better. I didn't take it personally what you said either. I am very amazed it was so close. Actually can't believe it. I still do think the ones from Jon are not good but man 'o man they are close......

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I could tell you if the card is vintage, but I'd have to have in person. A simple way to compare the cards is to put them under a black light side by side or overlapping. There's a good chance that if one is real and one is a later reprint that the stocks will fluoresce noticable differently as the stocks are made out of different material. Black light is a great way to identify different card stocks, and an important counterfeit detection tool for all card collectors-- including collectors of modern cards. If a collector has a pile of 1986-7 Fleer basketball commons and a $10 black light, he should have no problem identifying a counterfeit Michael Jordan.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

The expensive (read $10) blacklight I got from BCD burned out. I am going to ask him for a refund since it was only about 3 years old....how dare him !!!! Thanks for the advice. I am going to send the cards to another board member but maybe you would be able to tell even more so. I am sending a card that I believe is real too....which is the one I scanned in this thread, right above here. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Leon, if the cards are sent my way I will be happy to look at them.

That last post of mine was not really a 'lecture' for you, but a general interest post for baseball card collectors who haven't yet purchased a blacklight.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Shoot me a private email to lluckey@amherst1.com which is my work...with your physical address. Sending to the other board member was not a dig on you either and I know the person I was going to send them to would be very ok with me sending them to you instead. I will take you up on your offer. This way I can get you to look at mine too to see if it's good, in your opinion. I appreciate it. The cards weren't going out until Monday anyway. Thanks much.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Leon, if you have a microscope, check to see if the card in question is photo engraved. It shouldn't be, because I think I own some of those same reprints. That should put an end to the authenticity question.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Don't have a 50x....all I have is a 6x, lost my 10x and 15x. I need to invest in some higher magnification devices....later

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Here's a link to a handheld microscope that I use. It's inexpensive, & it works great for cards. I've bought from this company a few times with no problems.


http://www.biconet.com/tools/60x100x.html

[Archive]

Posted By: PASJD

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57993&item=5167260409&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

[Archive]

Posted By: Glen V

SGC and PSA used to grade FroJoys. When I called around a few months back, SGC, PSA, & GAI would not grade them. Hopefully they change their policy in the future.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Glen, since there are several fake fro joys graded, why would you hope they change their policies? They can change their policies when they have someone who can identify originals, until then, I agree with their policy not to grade.

[Archive]

Posted By: leonl

David R. looked at the ebay ones for me and has found them to be fake. The paper is not correct and the cut and printing aren't either. I accidentally sent him a 1928 Babe Ruth Candy card and he found it to be real....good thing because I really never had any doubt on it and would have been upset with myself if it wasn't real. I will be sending David my 2 Fro-Joys today and am crossing my fingers. I do think both of the ones I have are good so we'll see...this is a good learning lesson for me....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Forrest

The graders should be able to tell a real one from a fake - if they need to get training or equipment similar to David's, then they should get it.

Fro Joy's are no different from any other vintage card - there were a limited number of printing/production techniques available in 1927 and a grader should be familiar with items produced using those producting techniques and be able to ascertain if "anything" is from that general period, and most certainly a card from a set that has real examples available.

What if a forger comes up with a reprint of similar quality for E121's? Does that mean that SGC, PSA and GAI have to stop slabbing them? Heck, they were produced using a technique similar to that used for Fro Joy's.

[Archive]

Posted By: leonl

I completely agree. I am just a hobbyist but the grading companies are/should be the experts. They should grade Fro-Joys just like anything else, imo. Are there good fakes out there? Heck yes. Should they absolutely be able to identify them? Positively...no different than David did. He didn't even get paid either.....so my thanks to you, David.... will let ya'll know how my personal ones turn out too...regards all

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I dont know why the grading companies shy away from these either. I just use the basic checks that David talks about on his website. I make sure it's photo engraved, with the lighter less controlled ink. The more modern photo engraved cards have more uniform printing dots, probably due to a heavier ink. If you compare a authentic photo engraved card from the 20's with a 1960's exhibits card with about a 50x microscope, you will see the difference. Also, I use the basic techniques for the paper that David touches upon on his website (cycleback.com) I'm still learning my authentication hobby, & his website has been a great help. Thank you David. A quick check of a Ruth Fro Joy #1 (portrait) from a scan, you need to see some clarity in the area of his eyes & eyebrows. Also, if you see those two printing defect dots in the upper right section of the portrait photo border, you can be pretty sure it's a reprint.

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

I would like to be the judge of these fro joys. Does Dave have originals to compare to? Leon, please send these to me or have Dave send them to me. thanks Dan.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Identifying these cards as reprints was straightforeward. Under the 100x microscope, the printing was clearly not vintage and, under a blacklight, the card stock was shown to be modern. The cards has a bit of a funky cut, but that was neither here nor there as far as dating them. I put Leon's Babe Ruth Candy card under the same microscope, and the printing was vintage. At the time I wasn't sure why Leon sent me the extra card (I was expecting his Fro Joy and Leon hadn't yet returned my email), but I figured I might look at it while I was at it.