LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST MASTRONET & PSA/DNA

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Posted By: Bill Daniels

The Following .pdf contains the original complaint I filed against mastronet and PSA/DNA. This is a must read for anyone who collects autographs or purchases from on-line auction sites.

web link to the .pdf which is the full 24 pages

---> http://www.billdaniels.com/Daniels_Complaint.pdf

Here are the .jpg's so it can be viewed with any web browser.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

You're suing MastroNet and PSA in part because 34 out of 2,000+ photographs didn't measure 8x10"? Jees, I hope for MastroNet's sake they aren't assigned a hanging judge.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

What I find most interesting here, is that on page 24 , according to Bill Daniels, Steve Grad allegedly told him that neither he nor anyone else at PSA even inspected this lot, yet the lot did have a PSA COA with Steve Grad's signature. If true this is quite a statement for Steve Grad to make. COA's being issued without lots being inspected.

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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

They also certified as authentic photographs that they admit to not examining...I think that is the bigger issue.

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Posted By: Rob L

Shocking, huh! An LOA for a multi-item lot is as useless as an LOA from me. They just don't make sense. I realize that having a letter for every item is tough, but why not do 10 per letter with a photo of the 10 on the letter. At least it appears that they checked it out this way. PSA/DNA must be getting close to putting their second foot in the coffin.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

David - I think he is suing because 2/3 of the lot was not as described, condition wise. The 30 photos that were not 8x10 are part of a general description of what was wrong with the lot.

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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Richard, I correct myself and negate my criticism. The description did indeed describe the photos as averaging Nrmt-Mt. I incorrectly thought the average condition was for the signatures only and not for the photos. My error.

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Posted By: dennis

this is in regards to rob l. you state "Shocking, huh! An LOA for a multi-item lot is as useless as an LOA from me." i really feel you are insulting yourself here.i would think you would have at least looked at the lot before issuing your LOA.

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Posted By: Rob L

Dennis, your right!

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Posted By: Marc S.

General thoughts:

On an 8x10, if a corner is bent, and not creased - can't the bend just go away?

Re: Steve Grad comments. This will essentially amount to 'he said/she said'. Under such a premise - I can't see where PSA/DNA has any liability here, unless they assert that they did not see the lot [which I cannot envision that they ever will do].

I'm not sure what the amount of damanges are here.

4% smeared signatures = value equals $800, assuming normal distribution

1.7% smaller than 8x10. Even if worthless, only worth $300, but surely they still have value.

And the condition...I guess it depends on how a legal entity would describe condition. I can't imagine that they would place a huge discount on a color glossy 8x10 that has a bent corner. A tear or something, sure, but this seems a bit over the top....

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

And with stuff like this allegedly happening I'm happy I don't collect autographs....

2 Things did strike me in looking this over (and yes I am a lawyer):

1. There are not Certs of Authenticity for each item ? Just one that certifies them en masse ? Then how does one sell them piecemeal if the lot is broken up without calling into question the established authenticity ?

2. As a legal matter "intent" (as is required to prove actual Fraud) is, from my experience, often very difficult to prove. "constructive fraud" (or "statutory fraud") , which focuses on the effect on the allegedly defrauded person is usually, from my experience, easier to establish.

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Posted By: G. Counter

Bill, Do You Yahoo!?

I bet you DO!

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

It depends on which items are allegedly not what they are supposed to be... I would guess that a lesser Brian Boitano autograph is probably not as a big a deal as one of (for example) Mickey Mantle, Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan.....

Also, if I read it correctly, I think the Complaint asks for more than damages that compensate the Plaintiff for his alleged economic losses. It asks for attorney fees and exemplary/punitive damages (which are designed to curtail the actions complained of so that a party cannot simply view lawsuits as a routine cost of doing business)....

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Posted By: Josh A.

Might this case get transfered to the federal court in Penn? Wher are Grad and Spence located? Interesting procedural question.
Substantively, it sounds like an intruiging case.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Josh - Grad works in California and Jimmy works in Pennsylvania.

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I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Couldn't Mastronet just take the lot back, refund his money, and reauction it with a bit more accurate description? Their financial loss would be negligible. If they go to court, a lot of lawyers will get rich and everyone else will be a loser.

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Posted By: Elliot

Actually, one of the terms and conditions of bidding in Mastro is that you agree that any lawsuits will take place in Illinois.

Also, reiterating Mark's point, we are really talking about a fairly inconsequential percentage of the entire lot. Quite surprising that Mastro couldn't work this out with somebody that appears to be a regular bidder in their auctions. About as surprising that Leon and Bill couldn't work things out so there would only be one board....has to be some sort of middle ground.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I bid on this lot. (phew)

Is page 24 missing here? Was it removed? I want to see where Grad allegedly told him that neither he nor anyone else at PSA even inspected this lot.

Something tells me that's the juicy part...it's like an incomplete work of fascinating fiction.

Also, Anyone else notice how Joe Orlando's signature kind of looks like 'Joe Montana's' signature if it had a few other letters.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Elliot re: the lawsuit. There isn't that much money involved between what the lot is objectively worth and what the buyer hoped it was worth. Just come up with a settlement, and stay away from the lawyers. I'm sure the parties will say "there's a principle involved" but principle always means money (or almost always).

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

as a diversity case, depending upon the residence of all parties and the amount in controversy. It could end up in Illinois depending on whether the court enforces the choice of forum provision in Mastro's bidding rules (likely in my opinion). It could apply Illinois law regardless of forum, depending on whether there is a choice of law provision or, if not, if the Court determines that Illinois law applies under a conflicts of laws analysis.

If it were here in Phoenix, I would estimate the chances of recovering punitive or exemplary damages to be remote, as it would require a showing of "evil mind", but it may be different in the Midwest. It would be easier, IMO, if Daniels sought rescission, i.e. undo the deal, but since he's asking for damages, he will bear the burden of proving what these are.

I agree the strongest point he could make is that the lot was unauthenticated, assuming he can prove that. Mastro acknowledges and advertises that the lot could make money for the bidder on a "breakout", so he is aware that such a breakout would be contemplated by the buyer. Depending on the particular photos shown not to be genuine or shown to be damaged, Mastro may have some problems arguing that damages are little when its own words foresee (read puff) decent profit. I really wonder how Mastro will show its people or third-party authenticators took the time to inspect over 2000 items for this lot. Curious case, but I'm hopeful for all concerned that it settles quietly.

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Posted By: Julie

every word of it. Except, why does PSA/DNA (ridiculous name!!!) at first say they didn't auhenticate and then refuse to talk to plaintiff?

Not sure what postal insurance has to do with complaint, but I have been wondering of late why the P/.O, or UPS or whoever, says "Mastro took no insurance out on this over and above the $100 that goes with the shipping/" (Must be UPS).

best of luck to the underdog, and when dealing with Mastro--that's always the other guy...

Maybe I shouold save this post for tomorrow?

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Posted By: Howie

I don't think pictures are graded to the same insane measures as cards. A big box of 2000 pictures said to average nmmt shouldn't be expected to contain 2000 problem free pictures. Pictures are prone to normal handling and look just fine framed up hanging on a wall. Maybe a few were slightly larger than 8x10 so the 2000 pictures averaged 8x10 in size.

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Posted By: James

I can't believe how many people are blowing this off like who cares if some are damaged and what is the big deal. If you bought these and had these in your store, would you care if 65% of them were damaged? Damn right you would. And if you were a buyer in a store looking for a nice 8X10 auto, would you spend any money on one with "just a little bent corner"? No way you would. If I bought these I'd be pissed, as i'm sure all of you saying it's no big deal. Good luck with the lawsuit Bill.

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Posted By: Tom

I have tried to tell this forum about PSA/Collector Universe for over 18 months now, but no one will listen. These people are bad news, based on what happed to me with the 1916 M101-5 Jim Thorpe card. I understand you do not think it's real or not, but I did not receive the same card back as they certified the first time. Mr. Daniel’s is right on target when he stated that PSA/Collector Universe refuses to discuss this matter and I received the same treatment. I would like to file a class action law suite against this company and anyone that is willing to come aboard let get it on. I believe PSA/Collector Universe is bad news for the hobby. Like I said before I will not buy any card that has been certified by PSA. To me that is a kiss of death for a card to slabbed into they’re holder.

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Posted By: Sean Coe

I've always thought that there was no way a lot this big could have had every signature authenticated. PSA may now be trying to cover themselves- in the current Hunt Auction catalog there are several large lots of signed govt postcards. Each comes with an LOA from PSA stating that because of their size there may be several secretarial signatures included.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I don’t understand how anyone could not blame Bill for going after them. They refused to negotiate with him and basically told him to shove it. I had a litho returned to me that had a one inch bend in the corner. There was no way you could see it once it was framed. It was returned because the buyer felt it was damaged. The same thing could happen with the 8x10's. He bought the items in good faith. He believed that the description of those items where accurate. What would you do if you spent $19.000.00 and they ignored you?

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I ment to say. How can people blame bill for going after them.

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Posted By: Travis

"What would you do if you spent $19.000.00 and they ignored you?"

EXACTLY!

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

if you look at the invoice, it seems he spent another $16K for other auction items. So I guess their response is: hey, we'll gladly take your money, now shut up and go away.