I cant belive I authenticated the whole thing.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Has anyone else seen the article on PSA/DNA?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050210/ap_en_ot/autograph_fraud_3>

According to the article, PSA/DNA has authenticated over 8 MILLION items. Here is a snip from the article:

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" PSA/DNA has been tracking fakes for about two years, and started tracking celebrity autographs last year, president Joe Orlando said. The company's experts analyze handwriting and materials, and preside over signings to authenticate signatures. Items are outfitted with a hologram which tracks the life of the signed poster, jersey or album cover.


So far, the company has authenticated more than eight million items, but that doesn't scratch the surface of the millions of forged items out there, Orlando said."

###########

PSA/DNA has been in business since 1998.

Working 7 years, 52 weeks a year, 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, this means that they authenticate 549 autographs an hour or 9.157 autographs a minute.<br />Now I know why all the top auction houses feel comfortable with PSA.

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

PSA has not authenticated 8 million signatures. They have graded 8 million cards in their 10 or so years in business. The signatures that they have authenticated is a small % of that.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Ok psa wins again. Here is the President of company telling you that they have graded and authenticated 8 million items at the rate of 9.7 per minute. I wonder why they might have a problem with trust. He did say "that they have authenticated 8 million items but that doesn't scratch the surface of the forgerys that are out there". I would think that would mean signitures more than cards.

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Posted By: MW

Jay/Qualitycards.com,

I have to agree with shellyjaffe. Within the proper context of the article, "the company" can only mean PSA/DNA. Also, there is a reference to "forged items" by Joe Orlando. Clearly, the article is about forged autographs, not forged baseball cards. The "eight million" figure is therefore, seriously misleading.

Perhaps the Associated Press writer (Colleen Long) misunderstood.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I am only saying what Mr Orlando said in the artical. The only thing that I can say about Mr. Orlando and PSA is:

1) deulsionary;

2) making claims they know are false in order to promote themselves; or

3) are actually doing that much authenticating which would arguably make it
impossible for them to do due diligence on anything if they are doing such a
rapid fire operation.....

I suspect I know which # above is the truth, but that's just my opinion and
if such claims as those Mr. Orlando makes are not to be believed, then which of his PSA claims can be believed?

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

We've reached the limit with these PSA and SCDA threads. This is not a grievance board. Anyone who is interested in the behaviors of either organization now has a wealth of previous posts that they can search through. Dave Bushing, Joe Orlando, David Hall, etc. - none of them are going to show up here to engage in a discussion about how they operate. Let's put a cork in it for a while. I'm going to delete any additional threads on these topics, at least for a while.

Bill

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Posted By: warshawlaw

20,000 women; ever wonder how #14,983 felt? About the same as a PSA customer

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Posted By: Chris

I'm NOT sticking up for PSA here, but I think the math above is misleading.

9.7 per minute seems awful, but if you think it in terms of multiple employees, it's not quite as bad. Do we know how many graders PSA has? (Someone here very well may...)

For example, if you go to dinner at a restaurant with only one chef, he/she can make only say 1 meal in 5 minutes. But multiple chefs can make 5 meals in 5 minutes. Doesn't necessarily mean your meal is of lesser quality.

Have I completely misunderstood what you were saying shellyjaffe? If nothing else at least I've made myself hungry.

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

"Jay/Qualitycards.com,

I have to agree with shellyjaffe. Within the proper context of the article, "the company" can only mean PSA/DNA. Also, there is a reference to "forged items" by Joe Orlando. Clearly, the article is about forged autographs, not forged baseball cards. The "eight million" figure is therefore, seriously misleading.

Perhaps the Associated Press writer (Colleen Long) misunderstood."

MW - No doubt the article is misleading. Just wanted to clarify that the 8 million # has always meant cards graded. The folks at PSA/DNA would love to approach that # in autographed items. As an example, as a small time submitter, I have submitted a few thousand cards to them for grading over the last several years but only 8 were signatures to PSA/DNA...jay

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I just finished eating and now I can answer your question. I only said cards and autographs because one of the people came on the thread and said that’s what he meant. To me the article talks only about autographs and that are how I did the figures. If the writer made a mistake in how he quoted Joe then my figures would be wrong. The only thing is that it’s in quotes so I don’t know how he could not understand what was said. Again I was just pointing out to you the problems that PSA has created for themselves by opening there mouths and putting there foot in it.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Who is this Orlando guy anyway? Does Cepeda come to mind?

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Posted By: William Heitman

Or is it Tony? Or are we taking about a place and not a person?

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Posted By: Brian Seigel

Shellyjaffe,

I'm not quite sure what experience you have with the press. However, I can tell you first hand that I have had many interviews - for print, radio and television. Many (the majority) have included quotes from me that have been way off base and words have been twisted and/or put in my mouth. These interviews include both business-related topics and collectibles.

For example, I have had my name, age, number of my children, the name of my wife, the name of my company and exactly what we do - reported incorrectly and/or taken out of context. In the collectibles area, for example, a newpaper reporter quoted me as saying, "I'm now going to buy a horse for my 12 year old daughter". I never said that....even though it's in quotes. The quotes mean nothing! My daughter read it and joked for months about me getting the horse for her!

So, while you may have a problem with Joe Orlando, PSA, or any other person or persons, please keep in mind that rarely do you find the proper "word for word" quotation - and many times, the unknowledgable reporter takes brief notes and re-creates the story he or she was putting together, which many times blends pieces that end up sounding nonsensical or unbelievable. The sports collectible hobby has few "beat" reporters like pro sports or politics, where you get highly experienced, knowledgeable reporters who balance each other out. You just might want to think about that before doing your long division work (PSA's been in business since 1991)

Regards,

Brian Seigel

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Posted By: Anonymous

In 1998, PSA initiated PSA/DNA. PSA/DNA is the world's leading third party autograph authentication company. Using state of the art technology, PSA/DNA created a four-level security system to prevent counterfeiting, forgery and piracy of high-value collectibles. In fact, PSA/DNA has been used to authenticate many historically significant sports items that include: Shoeless Joe Jackson's Bat, Super Bowl XXXIV, XXXV, and XXXVI Game-Used footballs, 1999 World Series Baseballs and Bases, Mark McGwire's 1998 70th Home Run Baseball, and the list goes on. PSA/DNA not only authenticates autographs/events witnessed in the presence, but its renowned experts, James Spence and Steve Grad, authenticate previously signed memorabilia. Their years of expertise and knowledge in the trade have established an impeccable reputation for providing professional, unbiased, expert opinions. Growth into bat collecting is also taking place. PSA/DNA, in conjunction with Grey Flannel A.A., has launch a new bat authentication service called Professional Model Game Bat authentication. Using PSA/DNA technology, bat experts, John Taube and Vince Malta, is leading the way to providing the industry with authentic game used bats.

This where i got my info on authenticateing and this is what i based it on. I only went by his forgery statements where there was no mention of cards.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Authenticating manufactured memorabilia at inception is a completely different thing from authenticating older pieces. By manufactured memorabilia I refer to all the crap that PSA/DNA has authenticated as it was signed, handed over, etc. Frankly, there is no skill in that at all--as Dave Winfield or whoever signs the ball and rolls it down the table, PSA/DNA slaps a sticker on it, swipes it with a pen, and logs it into the database--because you are at the source at the time of creation. The skill lies in developing the expertise to look at a Ruth ball and say whether it is authentic with reliability. If PSA/DNA is counting the thousands or even millions of pieces of manufactured memorabilia its monkeys have presided over in its totals, I could see them making a big number claim. But who cares how much trained monkey work they did; the real issue is whether they have the expertise to authenticate rare and vintage signatures.

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Posted By: HW

shellyjaffe

The name Jaffe rang a bell with me from the past -- are you the same person who is listed in these FBI Operation Bullpen articles?

http://www.sweetspotnews.com/bullpen.html

beckett.com/news/ index.asp?action=showarticle&articleid=740&nsection=1

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Posted By: Brian Seigel

shellyjaffe,

This is exactly the problem with your pointed critism, and my response above. You now say, "I only went by his forgery statements where there was no mention of cards." How do you know he said this? Because it had quotations around it? How can you condemn someone based on statement or statements in an article written by a third party?

All I'm saying is that if you "only went by his forgery statements where there was no mention of cards" you are assuming that the writer of the story got it 100% right. I, for one, know this is rarely the case, especially from articles written on a topic where few expert journalists exists. I doubt Colleen Long of AP is an expert in our hobby, let alone authentication.

Look back and see what you've written, point by point, about one individual based on this story and think inward as to how you'd like to be repeatedly slammed by someone based on an inaccurately written article about yourself.

I doubt you'd think it would be fun or amusing.

Brian Seigel

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Brian: You win.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

HW: Yes I am the same person. That is why I might know a little bit more about the forgery's that are out there. I have worked with the FBI since this happened and helped write some articles for SCD to prevent people from buying the crap that is being sold on ebay and other venues. I didn’t try to hide who I am and have no reason too. My opinions are my opinions and I strongly believe in them. If you have problem with me being on here I will be more than happy to leave.
Shelly

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I was interviewed by a newspaper and was misquoted in print. I thought it kinda cool to be misquoted just like all those famous athletes and movie stars.

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Posted By: J.McMurry

Shelly,

How about really helping the rest of us out by giving us tips on what to look for on the fake stuff that you handled and / or sold. That would benefit me as a collector more than you taking constant shots at PSA & Jimmy Spence.

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Posted By: HW

shellyjaffe,

Nowhere did I say that I had a problem with you. Due to the whole Bullpen thing, I am sure that you have great knowledge of the autograph market -- both the goood and bad sides of it.

Your named sounded familiar and a simple Google search yielded the link. To tell you the truth, I thought that you were a vintage bat dealer -- shows how good my memory is.

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Posted By: dennis

"I didn't say the things I said." yogi berra

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I will be more than happy to point out the forgerys that are Ebay and other venues. I also want you to know that I had many items authenticated by the top people in this industry. They where all forgerys and that is why I do get upset when people think that these guys are gods.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

There are so many forgeries in the market place that it would take days to list them all. Greg Marino on a good day could do over 3000 pieces. That included Ruth, Cobb, Gerhig, Foxx, Mantle, Williams ,Dimaggio just to name a few. I can tell you that one of the balls, a 1994 World Series ball with Mickey Charles Mantle and all of his stats sold for $3600 at Christy’s. He was amazing. The problem is that there where guys before Marino that flooded the market with Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams, Koufax and Mays. That was one of the reason I brought up the five hundred hr balls. They where sold by so many dealers in the country they became authentic just by the volume and the acceptance. Shop at Home sold so many forgeries that they are still being sold on EBay with there certs. It was WHO was selling this garbage that made it easy for the forgers. ABC Company would have signing with let’s say Ali. He would get five hundred pieces signed then he would call the forger and boom there where now a thousand. This happened everyday. The forgers today are going the celebrity route because no one knows what the hell there signatures look like. I will post the most common forgeries that are on eBay today and if I can answer any of your questions please email me at shellyj@cox.net

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Posted By: J.McMurry

Shelly,
Thanks, That would be a great post. I personally would like to know clues to look for on an item that would deem it a marino forgerie. Feel free to email details to me that you dont feel comfortable posting on this board.

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Posted By: Rhys

Perhaps Joe was refering to the number of signatures, not specific items.

If PSA/DNA has authenticated say 20,000 team signed baseballs in all their years and each has 30+ signatures then that comes to 600,000 signatures, and when you start throwing around all the scraps of album paper with 5-10 autographs then it really starts to add up.

I talked to Steve Grad once about having my entire collection authenticated and they give you a great rate of like $15-$25 per item in a huge volume deal. At the time I had over 5,000 items, many of them multi signed so in one day they could come to my house and "authenticate" over 15,000 items, and I am just one guy. (I never really considered doing it but he brought it up so I listened). If you start to add up all the multi signed stuff they have done over the years then I think 8 million might not be that far of a stretch.

For the record, I do not like PSA/DNA and have only used them a handful of times, but if they meant "autographs" and not "items" then the 8,000,000 number might be accurate.

Rhys

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

Listed below are some of the garbage that is on ebay. I will be posting the older signitures in the next few days. I can tell you that some of these items have sold over and over again. You need to go to completed items to feel sick. Look at the last few items .How many blank balls can you have how many mantles balls can you sell at $100 and still make a profit. If the puplic is that stupid ebay shouldn't be. This is why I am so upset.

JE I faxed you some of gregs work why dont you comment on it.

Sorry if you have to high lite and then look I just couldnt get it to work right/

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60597&item=5162806290&rd=1



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27261&item=5163741937&rd=1



These are two Marino pieces of joe d



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5163501404&rd=1 open a in Williams big sign of not being authentic. East coast forger



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5163532600&rd=1 one of the shop at home balls that I was talking about.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5163532600&rd=1 to neat to clean all the I’s are the same height. East coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5164884909&rd=1 open a and d east coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1 Marino famous for the s on Williams by ending the s through the top not the bottom.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1The ball I call the shake a bake. Mantle in worst days never signed a baseball with so many shakes drunk or sober. East coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1This is the ball that was sold on shop at home. East coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1The number one piece of garbage on eBay. You will see ten of these up there at a time.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1Here is the partner in crime the blank back ball. That way you can’t date the ball.



This just a few of the items that I see every day. One way to be careful is don’t by all star balls or blank back balls. Williams and Mantle on a Budig ball.

I will get into the older guys in a few days. There weren’t any Mantle Marino’s up there today





http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5163501404&rd=1 open a in Williams big sign of not being authentic. East coast forger



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5163532600&rd=1 one of the shop at home balls that I was talking about.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5163532600&rd=1 to neat to clean all the I’s are the same height. East coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27260&item=5164884909&rd=1 open a and d east coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1 Marino famous for the s on Williams by ending the s through the top not the bottom.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1The ball I call the shake a bake. Mantle in worst days never signed a baseball with so many shakes drunk or sober. East coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1This is the ball that was sold on shop at home. East coast



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1The number one piece of garbage on eBay. You will see ten of these up there at a time.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=27295&item=5165411679&rd=1Here is the partner in crime the blank back ball. That way you can’t date the ball.



This just a few of the items that I see every day. One way to be careful is don’t by all star balls or blank back balls. Williams and Mantle on a Budig ball.

I will get into the older guys in a few days. There weren’t any Mantle Marino’s up there today

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

I ment to say JM. I would have thought that you might comment on the signitures that where sent to you.

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Posted By: Howie

Shelly. You've posted a few topics blasting PSA. Your Spence auction lot LOA post had nothing to do with PSA. This topic is a bit of a stretch, critical of how a number was used in an article. Is this supposed to scare us all away from PSA? Then you proudly list a bunch of Ebay items that you've deemed to be questionable. Well, not a single one of the items you listed above comes with a PSA/DNA cert. Did you want us to just assume they were and fit nicely into your PSA/DNA rant?

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

what are you talking about. I only showed that when you make a broad statement sometimes you put your foot in your mouth. As far as the items i put up they are not questionalble they are forgerys. I put them up there to try and prevent someone from buying the crap that is up there. I dont want to get into a pissing match with you.

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Posted By: shellyjaffe

If you read why they where put up there you would know that it had nothing to do with psa. So read first and then make your statement.

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Posted By: J.McMurry

Shelly,

First off, thanks for responding to my request, you seem to genuinely care about exposing forgeries. As I said in my email to you, some of the signatures are obvious fakes, others you have to look at twice to be sure. I still have a question as to what that was that you faxed. Was it a practice / guide sheet for team balls? I might have spotted another clue to look for, in reference to the "ny yanks 1929 merry xmas from..." example, I'm thinking the term xmas did not come into use until the late 60's / early 70's? can someone shed some light?

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Posted By: dan mckee

Joe Orlando isn't a bad guy, he called immediately after my trial to congratulate me and get my address to send the check. He just forgot to send it.