Larry Fritsch grading- examples

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Posted By: leon

from his catalogue:

Dougherty - good
Evers- vg-ex
Lobert- good
Murphy- about good
Shean- vg-ex (this one measured way short)

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Posted By: Joe P.

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Posted By: tbob

I just bought 4 Obaks in excellent sight unseen from him and an E98 HOFer in "About Excellent."
I am starting to worry a little

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Larry's dog must be extremely vicious !

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Posted By: Ben

That Evers is a sweet card. Perfect registration.

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Posted By: CowboyNealatthewheel

....and I'll give you a psa 8

J/K

....lord only knows what they'll print on the flip.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

(From the ones I kept, which I did not feel were more than 3 grades overgraded - those I returned) - after sending them to GAI (and most of you think GAI is not as strict as SGC), the average overgrade by Fritsch was over 2 grades higher than what GAI graded the cards (and again, these were the ones I felt were a good deal at the real grades and did not send them back, b/c they were not more than 3 grades overgraded). In fact, the 3 cards I bought which Fritsch called EX all were graded GAI 2.5's!!!!!!!

Also, I bet the Colgan's Red Border Tinker I bought from Leon (who bought from Fritsch that was graded EX - I am guessing that is where Leon bought it from) will not grade over an SGC 30!!!!

My last order from Fritsch, I was sooooooooooooooooooooo mad that I sent everything back (including a reprint E121 set and American Card Catalog) b/c the card he graded GD/VG was POOR!!!!!!!!!!! I told Fritsch not to even bother sending me an apology for his grading, to credit back the ENTIRE amount to my credit card (including shipping and that Outrageous 5% "convenience fee" he charges for ordering over the phone!)!!! I also told the crook that the card would not grade above a 1 by any of the three top grading companies - which he should know.

It is funny how he states in EVERY catalog that he was the first dealer in the Hobby to use grading. Well, he sure the HELL never perfected that grading system he "invented"!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Tim Mayer

i assume every card i get from them are at least a grade lower, that said they are fair and except returns and are good about it, so if I really need a card, and they have tons, I buy from them knowing this going in...

these i must say are pitiful examples though

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Posted By: jay behrens

You'd think after all these years that he would realize that he could be making a lot more money by accurately grading his cards, thus cutting back on the costly returns. I'm sure all the returns comsume a lot of time that could othewise be used to accurately grade and describe cards. Just really poor business in my book.

Then again, I never liked the SOB. We was always an ass whenever I tried to talk to him when I first got into the hobby.

Jay

The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I ordered from Fritsch once. Never again. Everything was overgraded, although not as badly as these. I kept only a few items. I now look at his catalogues and laugh.

Kit Young is just as bad. It chaps my @$$ every time I look at my SGC 20 T206 Tinker that was sold to me as much higher grade. Sure, I got a cash accommodation from them but it doesn't negate the stupidity of their overgrading.

I basically never would buy any raw card from either of these bozos again.



Photo: Me, Don Newcombe, my nephew at Dodgers Stadium

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Posted By: dan mckee

Remember that Larry is old school so expect 1 grade off, but these are rediculous from any era of collecting.

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Posted By: Howie

The Evers isn't that bad, unless the back is missing. The goods are pretty bad. The more important thing is price. If he's only charging 10-15 bucks for the really bad ones then the cards aren't bad for the price regardless of his unique grading scale. Is good the lowest? It's a problem though if you need cards that are truely good and are paying a good level price. If you kept some then they'd be worth buying from in the future but you may want to ask for pictures first. This is what makes buying graded cards more productive.

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Posted By: leon

I didn't make any other comments at first, on purpose. The cards and grades speak for themselves. I should have mentioned all of the backs were all there and decent but, quite honestly, I didn't need to turn them over to know they were being returned. I paid book prices or above for the grades listed. I ended up keeping the Evers and feel I got a very good deal on it. It is probably only vg but that's only 1/2 a grade less than advertised and I can live with that. Larry always gives fast, polite, refunds so I will continue buying from him. .....sort of like Forest Gumps "box a chocolates and life", ya never know what cher gonna get. As I have told a few friends I think a lot of people won't go through the hassle of returning stuff and Larry makes out nicely. Kind of like flinging crap at the wall and seeing what will stick (or in this case what the customer will keep). I am happy with my purchase though.......regards all

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Posted By: Anonymous

WOW! Those are good to poor at best!

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Posted By: Chris

Back in 1981 a local TV show had Larry Fritsch on it showing off his baseball cards. I was already collecting but this show was what really hooked me. He had this huge warehouse full of cards, he was showing off a stack of 1954 Bowman Ted Williams cards, and to me, a 13 year old kid at the time, he was the baseball card God. With that being said, I always saw his ads in hobby mags but never bought anything from him as he was WAY more expensive than other dealers. I would never buy from him either. Just too many bad stories. I would say you are right Leon. Most people do not return the cards so he makes out quite nicely. That with the fact he has some hard to find cards allows his to "test the waters" with his grading. IMO it is unethical and I have never wanted any card badly enough to trust him with my $. I agree with Jay, I think he could make much more $ by grading fairly, but then again, whwo am I to second guess the way he does business? I often wonder just what kind of stock he has. He seems to be a major hoarder and has been doing it longer than just about anybody.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

Ordered once was not happy, so now I dont go back. Nice catalogs and God knows he sends me one just about every month..

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Posted By: DD

In reading the other post about the Rosen-SGC-Keith-Doyle fiasco, it says that Fritsch has 2 of the known Doyle T-206 Nat'l variation cards, and they are in excellent condition. Is that excellent according to him (making them about g-vg, or vg-ex), or according to someone else? lol

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Posted By: Joe P.

DD:
"In reading the other post about the Rosen-SGC-Keith-Doyle fiasco, it says that Fritsch has 2 of the known Doyle T-206 Nat'l variation cards, and they are in excellent condition. Is that excellent according to him (making them about g-vg, or vg-ex), or according to someone else? lol"
*
*
If you're a T206 collector at least get it right.
What makes the MAGIE a Magee error?

Right, ... there you go, I knew that I could count on you.
Someone spelled it MAGIE.

Not a skipped color printing sequence but an actual spelling error.
Which is why they call it the MAGIE error, and not the Magee varation.

Skipped color printing sequence usually cause varations.

In the Slow Joe Doyle case, the error was created when they misplaced the New York Highlander's Doyle in the wrong League, ... the Nat'l League.
Confusing him with Larry Doyle of the New York Giants.
This was a greater error than the Magie misspeling.
We're talking about an entire league error.
It was caught faster than the Magie. ... thus the scarceness.
What boggles my mind is why didn't they insert the correct League in once they found the error.
It would have only taken seconds.

DD, I've had the pleasure of seeing one of Larry's Doyle's in I think 1987.
From what I recall, it was a very very decent grade.

Let's face it DD, you can have 45 Wagners, but if you don't have the Slow Joe Doyle error. ....
We're not talking about grades here. .....
We're talking about any grade that you can get one in.

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Posted By: DD

It was meant as a joke initially, but thanks for clearing up the error/variation error I made.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

NOW I know whats wrong with that Evers card. Johnny is actually smiling..

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

You guys act shocked. This is why I'll never again buy an ungraded vintage card. Why should Larry be any different than the crooks on ebay? For every 10 cards advertised as NM or better, perhaps one will come back as a PSA 7. The rest are 6s and 5s. I've yet to see an 8. Unless you just don't mind throwing your money away, how can you not buy graded cards? At least you're not getting ripped off.

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Posted By: Scott

Is that enough for a dealer to be considered respected?

If you think it's okay for Fritsch to basically lie about the grades he assigns just because others do it, then do you think it's okay for you yourself to do so? Of course not - you have integrity. That's the only point people are making - it's not okay to be a liar because others lie. It's not okay to sacrifice integrity because others do it. The honesty in this hobby has to start with honest people - if a good example is shown, other hobbyists may start taking the more honest dealers as the standard, and relegate guys like this to the trash heap.

I also don't agree with those who say dealers have to overgrade in order to survive. Conversely, if I could trust a dealer's grades and descriptions, card unseen, I would go to him before considering anyone else.

And just to make John happy, a nice picture

Wilbert Robinson Conlon photo, with trademark Conlon signature on back. David, I'm succumbing to your analysis and giving up the other board, meaning my photo fix will trickle over here. Other board is still there, and I'll check on it every now and then.

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Posted By: tbob

You guys act shocked. This is why I'll never again buy an ungraded vintage card. Why should Larry be any different than the crooks on ebay? For every 10 cards advertised as NM or better, perhaps one will come back as a PSA 7. The rest are 6s and 5s. I've yet to see an 8. Unless you just don't mind throwing your money away, how can you not buy graded cards? At least you're not getting ripped off.>

If you think that all cards in slabs are untrimmed, undoctored and unaltered...No, surely you don't believe that. I'll agree that there is some time overgrading on ebay of raw cards and often it is really bad if someone who has no clue opines his opinion, but when a scan is posted along with the description it is up to the intelligence of the buyer to make a decision. The more experience the buyer has in observing and examining vintage cards, the better off he is.

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Posted By: Forrest

Came back as a 10! What a story.

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Posted By: MW

SGC 96

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Posted By: tbob

To close out this post, I wanted to report the arrival of the cards I ordered from Fritsch and their relative conditions.
I ordered 6 T212-2 Obaks, 5 in ex, one in vgex. All 6 came back roughly around ex. So far so good.
I ordered an E98 Clarke in "near excellent". The front is great with no creases and exish corners. Well centered and clean although the surface felt a little odd, a little coarser than other E98s I have handled but not a problem. When I flipped ot over there was a tiny stain bottom right, not a problem, BUT there was a tiny paper loss which affected one of the names. It is very small but judging from the E98s Pete C. had graded by SGC and sold in a lot of 4 on his web page, enough to knock the grade down from a 60 or 50 to a 30, maybe a 20 (hope not).
Any way, as tough as E98s are to find, I kept it, probably paying a good price for a 50, too much for a 30 or 20.
I sense this grading is akin to what some posters called "old school" where a little back damage isn't a problem worth speaking about. I noted that on some of his caramel cards Fritsch mentioned "bd" but did not on this one.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

all came back at an average of 2 grades overgraded from GAI (and these were the ones I kept, b/c I thought they were good deals at the real grades). The ones he called "EX" - ALL came back GAI 2.5's, including an E92 Nadja Bemis!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Old school grading?

I guess it doesn't matter if you're an old time collector with 30+ years of experience or a relatively new collector at 3 years - standards are standards. If the card isn't blank backed, then damage is damage - missing paper, scribbles of pen or pencil, etc should impact the grade. If the card is blank backed then any damage is still relevant but at least it doesn't affect any printing that may add to the aethetics of the card.

When I sell cards my grading is fairly strict. I typically undergrade rather than over grade. I've nailed more SGC grades than I've missed and when I miss it's usually one grade (or two) too low (rather than high). I find it difficult how some of the "big time dealers" are so subjectively blinded by their goods.

Some people are "corner" people, some people place more weight on "centering" while some others place emphasis on "image quality/contrast/coloring". In any case, following published standards should not be too difficult. Old school, new school - it's all perception. Unfortunately on person's EX/MT is another persons VG/EX.

I'm not an advocate of PSA but here are their standards and I have to say that I agree with them. The only thing I don't like about grading services is that even their own graders can't seem to follow their own published standards:

PSA Card Grading Standards

GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint.

A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.
MINT 9: Mint.

A PSA Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint.

A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
NM 7: Near Mint.

A PSA NM 7 is a card with just a slight surface wear visible upon close inspection. There may be slight fraying on some corners. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. A minor printing blemish is acceptable. Slight wax staining is acceptable on the back of the card only. Most of the original gloss is retained. Centering must be approximately 70/30 to 75/25 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.
EX-MT 6: Excellent-Mint.

A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
EX 5: Excellent.

Excellent On PSA EX-5 cards, very minor rounding of the corners< is becoming evident. Surface wear or printing defects are more visible. There may be minor chipping on edges. Loss of original gloss will be more apparent. Focus of picture may be slightly out-of-register. Several light scratches may be visible upon close inspection, but do not detract from the appeal of the card. Card may show some off-whiteness of borders. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.
VG-EX 4: Very Good-Excellent.

A PSA VG-EX 4 card's corners may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.
VG 3: Very Good.

A PSA VG 3 card reveals some rounding of the corners, though not extreme. Some surface wear will be apparent, along with possible light scuffing or light scratches. Focus may be somewhat off-register and edges may exhibit noticeable wear. Much, but not all, of the card's original gloss will be lost. Borders may be somewhat yellowed and/or discolored. A crease may be visible. Printing defects are possible. Slight stain may show on obverse and wax staining on reverse may be more prominent. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.
GOOD 2: Good.

A PSA Good 2 card's corners show accelerated rounding and surface wear is starting to become obvious. A good card may have scratching, scuffing, light staining, or chipping of enamel on obverse. There may be several creases. Original gloss may be completely absent. Card may show considerable discoloration. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.
PR-FR 1: Poor to Fair.

Poor to Fair A PSA PR-FR 1 card's corners will show extreme wear, possibly affecting framing of picture. Surface of card will show advanced stages of wear, including scuffing, scratching, pitting, chipping and staining. Picture will possibly be quite out-of-register and borders may have become brown and dirty. May have one or more heavy creases. A Poor card may be missing one or more small pieces, have major creasing and extreme discoloration or dirtiness throughout. Card may show noticeable warping. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

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Posted By: Paul

I've been collecting since the 1970s and I'm not familiar with any "old school" of grading. There is no doubt that there has been an increase in demand for high grade cards. There has also been the addition of several new grades at the high end to accomodate this demand. It used to be that the next grade after Ex was Mt. Obviously, that's no longer the case. But I don't think the standards for each grade have changed. A card graded Fair, Good, or Very Good in 1973 should grade the same today.

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Posted By: DD

In advance, I apologize for my off-topic remarks that follow, as well as the non-sequitir at the end.

I feel that the grading systems that are used are part "old school", and part accurate grading, and a change is needed.

When I first started dealing cards in 1976, prior to grading companies and the hobby boom of the late 70's early 80's, we had poor, fair, very good, excellent, ex-mint, and mint. In between grades at the lower levels were also OK.

With the advent of near mint to mint, the ex-mint grade is not accurate; it would be equivalent to getting a C++++++++++++++ on a test when the teacher could just give you a B-, or possibly a B. The ex-mint grade was viable at one point, but now outdated. The "mint" in ex-mint, implies that it is close to mint, and nothing should be in between. Near mint does the job, and near mint to mint is just one step closer to mint. Ex+ is more accurate for ex-mint. Don't get me started on gem mint, pristine mint, flawless mint, uncirculated mint, Angelina Jolie mint, or any of the other silly grades (except for Angelina) that are assigned above mint. Mint is mint; period.

Just a thought.

P.S. I remember I first saw the near mint to mint grade in one of Al Rosen's auctions but I think it was Nr-Mt to Mt ++++++. By the way, I remember when we would refer to Al as the guy that was nearly arrested for being involved in stealing Drake's Cakes sets out of the factory.

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Posted By: Paul

My Fritsch order has finally arrived. It looks like his grading is hit and miss, and mine fortunately were mostly hits.

I received an M101-6 Sisler that was listed as VG-Ex. Because of corner creasing, I think it technically would grade VG, but it displays much nicer. I suppose some would be critical of the grading, but I was not disappointed. (It's also my very first M101-6, something I've always wanted).

I also received a 1948 Team Issue of Arky Vaughan. It was supposed to be EX+ but turned out to be Near Mint. There was a NrMt one in the catalog, but I was told it had been sold. I wonder if the guy who ordered it ended up with the Ex+ one.

Last, I received a 1950 Team Issue of Joe McCarthy (w/ the Red Sox, pretty cool). It was supposed to be Ex+ and that's about what it was.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Let's face it, grading isn't rocket science and it hasn't really changed over the last 20 years in the collector's grades. What has changed is the money. Some of you may recall (I do) getting better cards than advertised from mail order houses like Card Collectors Company back when cards were not valuable. There was no incentive to cheat. Old school graders always seem to grade their stuff 2 grades too high but your stuff a grade too low. It can be very lucrative, buying vg-ex cards as vg and selling them as ex, even with the returns. It isn't that the folks at Fritsch or other overgraders cannot see the flaws or learn to grade accurately (after all, with 15 minutes of orientation PSA's pimple-faced Orange County teenagers are professional graders ); they are moving product in volume and don't really care whether they are right because they know that most of the customers who need the cards for their sets will eat the overgrades.