Thoughts on Authenticity

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Posted By: Mark

Here's an item from the same seller as the LaJoie Bat (referenced in the other thread....) This Cotton Package Label is reported to be circa 1890, and there are quite a few others for sale concurrently by the same seller.

Some beautiful artistry, and I imagine these are quite valuable if authentic. The seller is featuring numerous others... many are non-sports related. I do not see any duplicates for sale, but perhaps the seller is holding some back.

I would like to get opinions as to whether forum members feel these labels are authentic. I can see the possibility of numerous examples turning up (even after all these years), but it seems pretty remote. And what are the odds of only one of each example surfacing?

If this was truly a recent "find" wouldn't it be expected that many duplicates would surface as well? Would love to hear some opinions from Carlton and any others who are well-versed on early lithography... thanks!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180316676917&ssPa geName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008


http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-BOWLING-KING-PIN-LITHOGRAPH-COTTON-LABEL_W0QQitemZ180316886302QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVint age_Sports_Memorabilia?hash=item180316886302&_trks id=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65% 3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-GOLF-LITHOGRAPH-COTTON-LABEL_W0QQitemZ180316885379QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVint age_Sports_Memorabilia?hash=item180316885379&_trks id=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65% 3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm not offering a final opinion from eBay pics as I would require in person examination, but the closeups show what resemble period lithography. I don't identify anything errant or dubious in the eBay pics.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

Never really look here although I like memorabilia so an infrequent post. These are most likely real and spectacular labels. The problem is that one never knows how many were found - that is the suppy to address to demand. The earliest made available will sell for the highest prices until and if the equation has time to settle. The chromo on these pieces is more often than not of great artistry and color - similar to work on crate/caddie labels. I noticed the baseball one in two other semi-major auctions - which suggests the buyer(s) are putting them out there in bits - perhaps to gauge the marketplace - just as the prudent buyer does.

No guarantees whether written or implied.....

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I was just at an antique shop in Brimfield MA this weekend and saw a print of the first (baseball) piece listed. It was definitely a reproduction. My guess is that these are as well but I don't know for sure. I just received a very questionable 1915 beer calendar in the mail (see my other post) that I am very skeptical on.

Greg

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

and I'm 95% convinced that these are in fact real - no reason to doubt the story or description. The admonition that it's hard to make something foolproof because fools are so inventive always applies - but there aren't always ghosts in the closet. Today's laser (and behaps even better?) printers and the like can reproduce anything. The major key to authenticity is ARE THEY CHROMOLITHOGRAPHED or some sorta photomechanical. For that you need one in hand......

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Posted By: Mark

Interesting... a rather mixed bag of responses, but no real tell-tale signs to dispute authenticity. Lots of "circumstantial" evidence, with all the other Labels listed concurrently, and the "miracle" LaJoie Bat find by the same seller. Interestingly, the LaJoie Bat has not garnered one single bid since the original NET54 post.

I would have guessed the Baseball Label would sell for much more than the low $400s, if authentic. Perhaps others had resevations as well. As nice as the lithography appears (and compared to similar ad signs and posters of the era), I would have expected this to easily exceed $2,500.

Let's see if the seller posts more in the future, or whether he sold all his inventory in one single shot... thanks for the responses!

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Posted By: barrysloate

I looked at the enlargement of the "Home Run" litho and it looks period to me. But I never like to sign off on a scan. It would have to be seen in person.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

respected advertising auctioneer - the baseball label - and I would trust his experience relative to it's authenticity without question. It was the same pair of labels - they sold @ 900.00. Of course that says nothing about this or any other example being right - it does suggest that a "find" was made if they are legitimate - a large print run if they're not . Other questionable items by seller might raise a flag for me - I wish you hadn't said that as I'm bidding on one of the labels Looking thru his feedback - it's good - and he sells many things - some better things - it wouldn't be unusual for something to get by -- although I haven't looked at the bat. I think the price on feebay which is primarily a wholesale market - might have been hurt by lack of knowledge and trust issues raised by cyberspace transactions or other issues like economics, limited interested base, who knows..... I also don't think the price THAT far off from how I would value it. More than a couple exist (and in pristine condition), they aren't posters or cigar box labels or samples, not proofs. I would think of it as a 600.00 - 800.00 item. I stand behind my beliefs that they're real until I see otherwise. The supply is the next question. Smart finders piece the stuff out slowly after assessing the market - like with any "new-old" stock. Others times it's like a flood and valuation plummets. Patience and time will probably tell........ You know of course as soon as you find sumptin youse never laid eyes on - three show up in the next week.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I just looked at this again and noticed it was for a cotton label (Rhode Island no less) and not a print. That exact same scene was on the repro print that I saw last weekend.

I agree with everyone else that you have to see it firsthand to determine authenticity (and even then there's still some doubt).

I mentioned before that I just bought a 1915 calendar that I am now returning as I believe it to be a forgery.

This stuff gets scarey. If it's real, that's a pretty good price it went for, given the subject matter.

Greg

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

my thoughts would be that someone just made a copy of the label. In a sense - the labels are "prints".

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Posted By: Anonymous

I agree that Ebay is a wholesale market of sorts, and perhaps my estimate of $2,500 was ambitious. But if this item was unquestionably authentic, professionally framed, and residing in a Catalogue Auction (like Mastro, Lelands, REA or Hunts), it would have realize a couple thousand $$

The graphics are stunning, and include a tipped-finger glove... the kind worn on one hand, with a fingerless glove on the other. These may well be authentic... I just wish I had enough confidence to bid!

Without condemning these Labels, I think bidder confidence was a big issue. Aside from the Baseball piece, the Golf one went for $117, and the Bowling one went for under $100. Either someone stole them, or someone got burned just a bit. Perhaps worth the risk...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Anything that's printed is a print.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

very funny ! I SWEAR I knew you would say that - it's just I was running out to Pilates.... I simply meant the classic everyday view of a "print" and what it conotes....

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As you note, many people equate print with art print, and I understand this common conception.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I was at the Hartford Paper show today and saw these labels for sale. Not sure if they were from the fellow who bought them but it was odd seeing them all.

The baseball was priced at $900

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Just one of each Greg?

I'm bettin' a bunch of these were found.

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

there are a bunch out there - at least that's the feeling I have based on what I'm seeing. As I "won" a couple non- baseball ones I have been doing a bit of research - and if I remember (CRS) - I'll post what I find out about them. BTW - not sure if I mentioned - the set sold in the 900,00 range.
I used to like the Hartford show - a bit far from my NYC address - but ALWAYS found at least one good thing there including a full plate gambling tintype - and a pair of salvation army baffoons - one of which is my avitar . One time at the show I had to wait over an hour to enter because the fire department said the number of people exceeded the allowable # - those were the days....
In any event - bet there were quite a few of most of the labels he's hawking - only time will tell unless he's antsy - and the population numbers of the baseball sets is likely as great as any of the subject matter he's selling.
Joe Davidson was a dealer (authored a pair of pretty books - Smoker's Art and The Art of the cigar label) who bought out the stock of some cigar and caddie label factories around the time that the decorative arts market was looking for something interesting to place on their client's walls. Values of these went up exponentially in part because the art really was spectacular - but also in part because there came recognition of a speculative aspect and a collecting genre. This fed into what was already an existing small collectible market for these labels. After a few years - other than some core collectors and demand for certain topical labels - everything leveled off. I think the problem other than storage and display was finding out what the true production/survival numbers were to establish a "true" price point for a collector or investor. Additionally, all these buys yield near pristine examples - like any new/old stock item - diluting values and perception of value. Same with dese here puppies - although hopefully I'm wrong and the supply is limited.

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

I saw just one of each Dan.

They looked legit, but I would imagine there was a find of these at least.

Bought a Brewery Union silk Ribbon that John Kashmanian brought to the show for us. I would imagine that if these labels were worth the money then John may have picked it up, but who knows...

Greg

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

that John K was still around! What was he selling?

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

John was selling some miscellaneous sports pieces as well as an old RI beer can.

I've known him for years. He and my dad used to work at a bank together for years. Great guy.