c1862 Baseball Team Photo with a Young Admiral Dewey

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Posted By: CarltonHendricks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dewey
The discussion about the baseball photo in the cache of nautical memorabilia that sold on eBay http://www.network54.com/Forum/567138/thread/1195345814/last-1195453206/1870%27s+Baseball+Team+Photo , brought to memory another baseball photo I saw at the 2004 National in Cleveland, that actually was nautical related. It was a c1862 team photo of the Norwich Universtiy baseball team in Vermont, which featued the future Admiral of the United States Navy, George Dewey 1837-1917. 1862 is pretty early for baseball photos. The tattersal pattern uniforms are wild by themselves...and those caps with the stars..so archaic. The photo was ofered by Terry Knouse of Tic and Tic for $15,000.00. You can also see it on Page 4 of my 2004 National coverage at: http://www.sportsantiques.com/2004_national_page_4.htm

Based on the Wikipedia link at the top, Dewey made a great Admiral, but had no business being president of the United States. It's puzzling but based on statements he made about carrying out the orders of congress, he didn't seem to have vaguest idea what the role of the president is. Fortunatly he dropped out of the 1900 presedential race.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That is an early photo and quite nice, but 15K! Yikes.

It might be worth a very tiny fraction of that.

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Posted By: ramram

It says Dewey graduated from Norwich in 1854 so, if this is an 1862 Norwich team, I don't think it would be him. Also, why would Norwich have an "A" on their uniform? Norwich University in Vermont is called the Norwich "Cadets". Usually school teams always had their graduation year or their school letters on their uniforms. Neat image but I really don't think it is Norwich.

Rob M.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Rob, good point.

Also agree with Barry about the high asking price.
I think somewhere between $2.5-5K would be reasonable for this kind of piece.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jimmy- I would actually lop a zero off the end of that 15K.

And now that I look at it a little closer, I don't think it's 1862. Unless it says that in the album, I'll guess 1866-68. And it's not Norwich. Who did the research on this?

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

I think Barry is right again. '62 seems pretty early to me.

Barry, if you find me a copy like this one, I'll grab it in a heartbeat for $1.5K...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jimmy- I'm on the case!

Actually, it is a pretty nice image. I'm not sure exactly what it's worth, but I wouldn't go hog wild. I guess value is subjective.

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Posted By: CarltonHendricks

Well I'm the one that started this so I better weigh in....I sure wish Terry Knouse could read all this but whenever I've asked him if he's been to my site, he says as much that he hardly goes on the internet...and basically I think he's one of those types that is internet challenged, he does have an email address but his wife does it for him, and doesn't know what it is kind of guy.

So ok, I dug out my notes I took on location as I was covering the 2004 National. Turns out I wrote down:

1866-67, then scratched it out...then I wrote "about 1865-66"...then in reference to the team I wrote "baseball team photo cf Norwich Univ." then (military Univ. - Vermont) Am. George Dewey Front Row 2nd fr. left

I must have scratched out 1866-67 for a reason, and likely Terry was discussing or speculating as I wrote. That's about all I know, from what I documented as I saw it. In relation to my notes, I was mistaken when I refered to the photo as 1862.

As to all the conjecture about the photo, in hindsight I had to laugh when Rob M. pointed out the "A" on their chest....how did that not immediatly raise a flag it's so obvious. The wikipedia link says Dewey graduadted from the Naval Acadamy in 1858...Maybe the "A" is for Annapolis, and the photo dates to the late 1850's. I just don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dewey
This is kind of funny but John Dewey was from Vermont too and went to the University of Vermont. Whereas George Dewey went to Norwich University which is in Northfield Vermont. The wikipideia link above says John Dewey graduated in 1879...and the player that is suppose to be George Dewey does resemble John Dewey I think.




I'm as confused as anybody at this point!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, it's still a beautiful image!

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Posted By: ramram

Considering those uniforms, that must be Bill Veeck in civilian clothes.

Rob M.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

are shaped differently in the comparison..... Think it is a fantasic image bolstered by those unreal uniforms. Never seen anything like them. Terry's prices might be considered "stiff" but he does pay high and gets the most exotic material that NO-ONE else has in their inventory. Just a thought - although it can not be seen in a scan - perhaps there is a "blind stamp" somewhere on the print as this was a common practice. Also, the tonal quality and depth of this assumed albumen print can't be seen in a scan. Knowing the toning method used as well as the type of stock paper (was it cut from a roll by the photographer therefore exhibiting a sometimes uneven "cut" or already cut into usable sheets by the supplier) might further help to narrow down the time frame. The mount and image DO suggest to me an 1860's OR EARLIER date - the process having been developed 10+ years earlier. The mount appears to be of the simplest style and is a typical period color for the mount. Perhaps David or others more in the photo related know can add to this - not my area of expertise but I do know a little. Barry and Mark R. among others (maybe lurkers?) have a lot of experience with old baseball related images and there's nothing like hands on experience.....

I think if it is in fact Dewey it's a 2500. - 4000. image because of the historical additive and it's cross collectibility as well as the strength of the image itself. As a "generic" pic. it's interesting but without some sort of player/school/important event tie-in to elevate it to the rarified air of such a lofty price. Generic photos can be quite pleasing but as there aren't really many collectors seeking out and COMPETING for simply unusual baseball photographs - that something below the low guesstimate is all that could be anticipated in a sale or auction. I am a simple collector (or I collect simply) and so don't trade in these expensive images.

(edited to add the preceeding paragraph and "or earlier" clarifier)