Old Judge "proof" slides and cabinets.......

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Posted By: mr. moses

Looking to get what I hope would be an interesting thread going precipitated by a listing somewhere for some amount of them ..... I have sold two glass negatives featuring Goodwin baseball players. I have sold a couple of mounted cabinet pix FROM OTHER STUDIOS with and without a "Goodwin" copyR, and a folder with some interesting smaller sized "proofs" with some photographer's notations on them. Subsequent to this I became aware at various venues of a "find" in Vermont or somewhere in that vicinity of MANY of these proof type photographs. Some have been sold at shows, some at major auctions like REA (Rob even called me once to ask about one in specific) and American Memorabilia (I think). I examined them pretty thoroughly (NOT an expert on photos BUT I have a fairly good base of knowledge) and have no reason to believe they are not real. I have a few specific questions to encourage some sharing or just add your own take and/or thoughts.....

1) are there members here that own any.
2) are there members here that have seen them in person that have feeling one way or the other about them.
3) If you collect N173 cabinets would you buy one or not.
4) If you collect baseball photographs would you buy one or not.
5) Is there anyone that could share more about "the find" like population - some sales history - the players - anything else...............

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Posted By: Zinn

Not sure if this fits the definition of your question.

Copyright 1888 Goodwin & Co. NY

Player is Boyce. Measures 4.25 by 6.5.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

They're cool, but I have always been under the impression that these were made in the early 20th century.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The Vermont proofs weren't made during the Old Judge years. I say this from viewing pictures and inspecting some in person. Some, like the 'Old Judge tintypes proofs' are nothing more than bad jokes. However, there are genuine Old Judge proofs on the market.

The genuine Old Judge proofs are cabinets in the same shape and size as the N173 cabinets. The mounts have text from various photo studios instead of Goodwin/Old Judge. These studios are usually the studio that shot the images for Goodwin.

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Posted By: Zinn

I'm not real sure I understand what you mean that these were made in the early 20th century. How is that possible? What I have shown is an 1888 photo of a proposed Old Judge card. Note that it is not cropped.

Here it is cropped to card size:


Here is an example of another pose. Check out the background.

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Posted By: Jimmy

1)"I sold one not to long ago for 1500.00 don't remember the name"
2)"I have seen some of the proof slides that came from Vermont"
3)Yes, I would purchase a cabinet before the proof!
4)Yes, but would have to think about buying a proof again - was not easy to sell
5)I do have a concern with the proofs, they seem to be in question every time there is one for sale - a few of the dealers I know were talking about similar items that have come up that are not real or have been copied for a scam, but look very good for a reprint. I know that the one I had was real, but it was in question, because everyone said there was a similar one on the internet. I never had problems with the cabinets before. This may have just been talk

Take Care Jimmy

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Zinn, I have heard that these were produced from the negatives in the early 20th century. I didn't mean to infer that the photographs were taken in the 20th century.

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Posted By: Zinn

I can buy that.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The find included numerous glass plate negatives. Once you have negatives, there is a great possibility that copies were made at anytime after 1888. That's my theory- they may be old but I don't think they are period.

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Posted By: mr. moses

I didn't make the connection between the glass plates which were in the hobby a bit before the cabinets and whatever. Food for thought. The glass plates were clearly real (I passed on one at the Philly show in the 2000. range - I won 18,500. at the crap table that night after the show and bought it the next morning I DO know that many photographers contributed to the Old Judge series for both their actual issues and those that were entries and poses subsequently not included in the manufacture. It is not unreasonable that there are proofs NOT on cabinet mounts (I sold a small group of SMALL clearly photographers sample proofs that were unquestionably period), but today I would be wary of any such material to begin with.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Holding some of the photos was an envelope with the name and address of a photography studio. Rob Lifson later researched the studio and learned that it was founded in something like 1912. While supporting that the photos aren't from the 1800s, the envelope obviously does not preclude them from being old. The envelope, photos and negatives were found as one package.

When several years ago I first saw two on eBay, I knew they weren't the 1880s as the mounts were from later years. I then examined two in person for Mastro Auctions, and the photos weren't albumen prints which they'd have to be to be original proofs. The goofiest one I saw in auction had an Allen & Ginter cigarettes ad on back-- which made no sense as Goodwin Co. and Allen & Ginter were competing companies. Old Judge wouldn't produce anything with an A & G ad on back, and A & G would not issue something with 'Goodwin & Co' in the front image. That would be like Coca Cola issuing a toy that said "Buy Pepsi" on back.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I am amazed that these go for such high $$$ amounts still to this day with all the suspicion that surrounds them.

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Posted By: barrysloate

In many cases there isn't proper disclosure, and buyers assume they are getting something made in 1888. I believe we've had a number of threads on this very topic.