Survey: Who is the most underrated deadball era pitcher?

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

Let's see if this gets a little more debate going. No choices to choose from this time. Just throw in your pick.

My pick is:

Eddie Cicotte. 208 wins, >3,000 IP, 2.38 ERA. Definitely had a good career before the Black Sox scandal.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

and jack chesbro both 40 game winners

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

OK, someone has to do it - Walter Johnson

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Walter Johnson deserves more credit.

I'm sure this would be easier if there was a time definition of "dead-ball era." Would most people agree that it was pre 1920? Does anyone want to set up the guidelines on this?

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

I didn't even think of Johnson that way, but you are absolutely right. Just because he was one of the best doesn't mean he appreciated by most. Even todays baseball fans know Cy Young's name but wouldn't have a clue to who Walter Johnson is.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

Rube Waddell? His career was fairly brief, but he had a 2.16 ERA in almost 3,000 innings and in the nine seasons from 1900-1908 he was #1 in K's/inning, except for 1901 when he was #2.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: John Dickson

Ed Reulback - 4 seasons with era under 2, 7 seasons under 3.

Nap Rucker - 10 seasons, all but one with era under 3.

[Archive]

Posted By: johnny bb

santana for mvp - twins- cardinals rematch !!

[Archive]

Posted By: Greg Ecklund

I'd go with Grover Cleveland Alexander as the most underrated, even though he played half his career in the deadball era and half in the live ball era. Alexander's run from 1915-1917 is possibly the best three year run of any pitcher, and had he not served in the trenches of World War I (which contributed to his serious drinking problem) he might have been the best ever.

Alex deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Mathewson and Johnson, but he doesn't seem to be on the same level in the minds of many people (Perhaps because he doesn't have that many great cards?)

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

There were three Pirates pitchers in the very early 1900s with fantastic records -- Deacon Phillippe, Sam Leever, and Babe Adams. I believe all three were on the same staff as Vic Willis. As far as I'm concerned, they were all better than Willis and all belong in the Hall of Fame before Willis (but that's not saying much, since I don't think Willis belongs). Anyhow, they certainly are underrated, as few people have even heard of them today.

[Archive]

Posted By: Sean Coe

I agree about Alexander. He was truly outstanding, yet hardly receives any mention when talking about the greats. Another underrated HOF pitcher is Chief Bender.

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

Ed Reulbach heads the list for me - both John Dickson (above), and American Memorabilia (surprise, surprise) spelled his last name incorrectly (Reulback), so obviously he isn't a household name.

Joe Wood was rated on par with Walter Johnson in his prime by many of his contemporaries, but modern fans go by stats and Wood wasn't around long enough to accumulate any.

Ruth is underrated as a pitcher - you can use Ruth pitching records in trivia contests and most people don't even know he was a pitcher.

Waddell was also one of the most feared pitchers during his prime, mainly because he threw so hard and wasn't afraid to hit people like Johnson was.

[Archive]

Posted By: dwight davis

How about Rube Eldridge? (You didn't specify major leagues.) He won 285 games and pitched both ends of more than 100 double-headers in the minors.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

Who sez lack of great cards?

[Archive]

Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Of course, I used to own it!

I didn't say he lacked any great cards - the T222 and the Cracker Jack are certainly great (although T222 is by far the best in my opinion). Compared to Johnson and Mathewson, however, Alexander just isn't in as many classic, widely collected sets like T205, T206, T3, etc. Most issues Alexander is on fall into the 1920's Exhibit/Caramel/Strip Card families that don't have as big a following in the hobby, and I believe that contributes to his lack of recognition when compared to Johnson and Matty.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt Goebel

I've always thought that Three-Finger Brown is very underrated by collectors. I know he pitched for some very good Cub teams, but he did post a 2.06 career ERA and it was considerably lower if you throw out his last few years (Federal League, etc). He also had a great winning percentage and many shutouts as well a pitching in some very historically important games. The quote that always sticks with me comes from John McGraw referring to Jose Mendez - "Mendez is better than any pitcher in the National League except Brown and Mathewson, and sometimes I think he's better than Matty". The way I interpret that quote, he ranks Brown ahead of Mathewson, and this is coming from Matty's own manager.

[Archive]

Posted By: Darren J. Duet

Kid Nichols & Mordecai Brown

How Nichols gets left out of great pitcher conversations, I'll never understand. A great career and among the game's pioneers. Brown in his prime was as good as anyone.

[Archive]

Posted By: John/z28jd

Any 19th century pitcher who isnt in the hall of fame but deserves to be.Bobby Mathews,Bob Caruthers and Tony Mullane would be my top choices among non hall of famers for most underrated

But the most underrated pitcher ever in my mind has to be Albert Goodwill Spalding who went 253-65 career and has the best winning percent all-time by a wide margin.In fact the difference between him and Spud Chadler who is in 2nd place all-time in winning percent,is the same as the difference between Chandler and 45th place all-time on that list

Throw in the fact that he hit .312 career and Spalding as far as dominance was the Barry Bonds circa 2001-2004 of his time

[Archive]

Posted By: Pcelli60

Alexander is greatly underrated. But lets remember the place in which he pitched his home games . The Baker Bowl was 280 feet down the right field line! And a friendly 310-320 in the right field power alley. How in the world did he excell in a place like that being a right handed pitcher!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

So far, results are as follows:


G.C. Alexander - 4
Ruelbach, Waddell, M. Brown - 2
many others - 1

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

my vote goes for Phillipie, He was the anchor of the great Pirate teams and only the truely die hard fans know how great he was. Walter Johnson has name recognition even for the casual fan, more dedicated fans know Alexander, but few know of Phillippie. That is true definaition of great unknown.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Wierd, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhys

Everyone knows Ruth as the great hitter, best ever, but the fact that he was a pitcher is the understatement of the deadball era. Ruth was the best lefthander of his time.

My vote will go with Bob Caruthers and Tony Mullane, but since they have already been mentioned, I have long thought that Carl mays would be a hall of famer but for the Ray Chapman incident, which was as much Chapmans fault as Mays'. He deserves to be in the hall of fame and is very underrated; if my memory serves me right he is either the only, or one of a few pre WW2 pitchers who are still on the modern ballot.

Rhys

[Archive]

Posted By: Pcelli60

Phillippe is underrated, and forgotten to time. That does not in any way tarnish his .633 winning percentage..But let's remember, that Pirate line up was pretty awesome! Could you imagine Alexander with those hitters supporting him..

[Archive]

Posted By: Max

My vote goes to Doc White:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitedo01.shtml>

but only because I have a beautiful near mint W600 of him (which I'll try and post), my spouse has a painting for sale of him (broad hint: http://www.ettinger.ca/docwhite.htm>) and because he wrote songs with Ring Lardner

(And thanks to Elliot for his entertainment Monday night, it made the tax conference a lot more bearable...)

Max

[Archive]

Posted By: al davis

not only was joe on a par with walter johnson in his prime, the big train even admitted that joe's fastball was better than his!

[Archive]

Posted By: Elliot

There goes Max mentioning that W600 of Doc White again, which he sniped away from me. Now that we've had a meeting of the Canadian chapter, I know that it wasn't that lovely painter lady that stole it, but her not so better half.

[Archive]

Posted By: Max

Elliot

W600 Doc is even nicer in person than he was on ebay--- which is more than I can say for me. I think.

Max

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

Hardly ever get to see those...

[Archive]

Posted By: tbob

Not the greatest pitcher of all time but Hooks Wiltse may be the mosy underrated. Matty got all the glory, McGinnity got the publicity but Hooks was a dynamite lefty.
I also agree Phillipe belongs in the Hall.

[Archive]

Posted By: PeterP

I'm going out on a total lark here, more to spur further discussion than anything else, but how about Smokey Joe Wood? Granted he only played 7 full seasons, but a .671 winning percentage and a 2.03 career ERA. Best season was 1912 when he went 34-5 with a 1.91 ERA, 10 SHO, 35 CG, 344 IP, only 267 hits, and struck out 258.

Sorry. Just went through the rest of the thread and saw Wood brought up a couple times.

[Archive]

Posted By: PeterP

Here's one for you, Al Spalding. Granted he was pre-modern and really even pre-National League, but check out these numbers:

7 Seasons (6 full)
253 Wins
65 Losses
.796 Winning Pct.
2.14 ERA

Lifetime .313 hitter to boot.

I also agree that Ruth is underrated because mostly, the only mention of him pitching is when people marvel that a great pitcher became a great hitter. But if you actually look at his best years, he was almost as good as Walter Johnson.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

I vote for Phillippe. He started in 5 of the 8 World Series games because the staff was depleted. His carrer walks per nine innings is still the best of all time also. His arm was abused by overwork and that cut down what could have been some very impressive career numbers.

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

I see you went back and edited your post because other people had mentioned Wood already,then you made another post about Al Spalding as one.Hes the same person as Albert Goodwill Spalding that i mentioned, thats why they have the same stats. Please dont ignore me,i get enough of that from girls at bars

Another great pitcher from way back who you never hear about is Tommy Bond,probably because he doesnt have many images,mostly team stuff.He won 40 games 3 years in a row,twice led the league in ERA and strikeouts and often played outfield when he didnt pitch.He finished all but 22 of his 408 career starts and won the pitchers triple crown in 1877

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

It's the same old sad story for Corcoran and Reulbach fans

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

Scott you'd be suprised how little success i have with girls[i could just end the sentence here but it wouldnt be much of a suprise] and using the pickup line 'wanna see the world famous corcoran collection in person' Sure i tease them with the little picture on my cell phone of the cards but theres nothing like seeing them all in person.

To be honest im actually not allowed to hit on girls anymore.See i was doing it at bars when my cousins band was playing.They noticed dwindling crowds and narrowed the problem down to me scaring the girls off

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

but I'm proud of you for moving your activities from the playground to the bar. Also, that "I love Corcoran" tatoo couldn't be helping much.

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

but I'm proud of you for moving your activities from the playground to the bar.

--- Obviously that wasnt by choice but you can only fail so many times before you move on.I learned a valuable lesson in that what works for Scott doesnt exactly work for everyone else



Also, that "I love Corcoran" tatoo couldn't be helping much.


---- It was either that or 'Do you wanna see my Polar Bear Johnson' which wouldve been a big mistake cause my Walter Johnson t206 card has a Piedmont back

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well I guess it is not deadball, but sometimes off topic is permissable. The most underrated baseball person all time, who was a pitcher is Monte Ward. As a pitcher he averaged over 40 wins/season for two consecutive years, pitched the second perfect game ever, and accomplished lots more. As an infielder and outfielder, he was an adequate hitter having three seasons in which he got about one hit in each three at bats. He was a top basestealer; once amassing over 100 steals in a season. He was a lawyer (is that a good thing?) who rebelled against the reserve clause. When he hit the brick wall of the owners, he started up his own league. He served as an administrator, manager and almost was elected league president.

Certainly the members here know all about him, but who else ever even heard of him? Wait! Let me ask my wife. No, but a good guess! He is not the founder of Montgomery Wards (or did he do that too)?

[Archive]

Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

I knew very little about Phillippe until I read the book when "Boston won the World Series". Now that I have read the book I would choose Phillippe. I thought this quote from the book was interesting, "Phillippi will, if he wins, be the most famous player in the history of baseball. He will be famous even if he loses out now, for he alone has been the man." Even in that era starting 5 games in a series and winning three is beyond remarkable.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob L

Ok survey is done. As far as I can tell, here are the results for the most under-rated deadball pitchers:


Phillipe - 5 votes
Alexander - 4 votes
Ruth - 3 votes
Wood - 3 votes


Survey is done. Phillipe wins this one!

Rob L

[Archive]

Posted By: tbob

Makes you wonder if his cards would appreciate much in value if he ever makes the Hall. Seems like the more recent inductees from the pre-war era haven't had as much movement (proportionately)as they should. I also note that pre-war players going in to the Hall are becoming rare.

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

I have, of course, focused on Ed Reulbach, but this site focuses on players who were stars in their time, but aren't in the HOF. Oddly, a few of the ones we came up with didn't make his list,e.g: Deacon Phillippe.

http://thediamondangle.com/sitt/