Here we go again (Obaks pack)

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Posted By: scott

Early Obak Cigarettes Complete Unopened Box BASEBALL Item number: 5124285201

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5124285201


[edited to change title and add link]

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Posted By: warshawlaw

people on 'ludes should not list--Spicoli

I'd like to see one of these fraudulent jackasses sued one of these days...

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Posted By: scott

Go ahead Jon tear this one up! I could see this from
our friend in Jersey ( pun ) but I'm suprised to see it from the boys in New England.

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Posted By: bcornell

To be fair, Scott G. & Co. didn't make any extravagant claims for the pack - "Early packages of Obak Cigarettes contained Baseball Tobacco
Cards...". Jerseyjerry wouldn't show that self-restraint.

Bill

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Posted By: leon

I know Scott G fairly well and know he is not trying to be misleading on this item. Here is a pack that is period, and while it doesn't have the all important date overprint, it does at least have a 1909 stamp AND the side of it, on the slideshell flap, says there was a picture in it.....later

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I agree w/ Leon on this one... surely not as bad as Jersey. L&M gives it away... nice pack Leon, BTW...

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ohh, and here is a 1909 Obak with the card that was inside...

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Posted By: scgaynor

Please tell me what is so bad about this? This is no different than selling those mayo tins that date to the 1910's, but have display value for an early card collection.

Adam, what part of the description opens me up to a lawsuit? Why don't you try reading the description before making a comment you silly jackass. People on ludes should not post on Network 54 - Spicoli.

I said that it is an Old Obak Pack. I didn't put a date on it, because I have no reason to believe that it is from the 1910 era, as a matter of fact the tax stamp does not date from the 1910 era.

By the way, the pack was originally sold by Lipset in his auction about 2 years ago.

Scott

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Posted By: honus3415

By listing the item in the category of "....Cards > Baseball-MLB > Singles (pre-1930) > Non-Graded" it would tend to make the not-so-knowledgeable collector think there was a card inside, especially since the description doesn't state differently and nearly half the description of the item is card related.

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Posted By: scgaynor

I listed the card in that category because that is my target audience. It would not make much sense for me to post it anywhere else as the pack has little collectible interest in other areas.

Nowhere in my description do I mention that there is a Baseball Card included in the pack. I write my descriptions for the advanced collector, as again, that is my target audience. If somebody does not know what they are bidding on, and reads more into the description than i write, that is out of my control.

Scott

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Posted By: hankron

I support Scott and his auctions, but think the auction is deceptive. The combination of the title and description could easily be read by an inteligent person to mean that the pack will contain a baseball card.

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Posted By: runscott

So Scott knows there is no card in the pack, and elected not to mention that, because he might lose bids from people who hope there is a card in the pack. He definitely told no lies. I posted a Sovereign pack a week ago, and stated that there was no card in the pack, mainly because I was posting in the pre-1930 card category. On re-reading this description, I probably should have said "there has never been a card in this pack". The 1902 tax stamp should give that away, but who knows. Also, I have over 60 auctions running, and I'm sure one of the "anti-runscotts" can find at least one misleading description among those

Disclaimer: I enjoy doing business with Scott - his auctions have some of the coolest stuff on ebay and I really don't care what his descriptions say. I've called and emailed when I had questions.

What I find even more curious about the OBAK pack auction is that ebay didn't shut it down - every time I have posted an auction for a pack containing cigarettes, ebay ended it quickly. Once I added the standard disclaimers, they let it ride. Perhaps someone is turning me in?

Example (no link - didn't want to get my tires slashed for advertising an item outside the B/S/T thread!)

Sovereign Cigarette Pack - Near Mint

A complete MINT condition pack of SOVEREIGN CIGARETTES issued by BUTLER-BUTLER of NEW YORK. The Sovereign brand was part of the American Tobacco Company group and one of the companies that featured t205 and t206 cards in their cigarette packs. There is no card in this pack, but it will be a great display piece, along with your Sovereign-backed t205 and t206 cards. Pack bears a TAX stamp that reads "U.T.Co., Facotry No. 147, 2d District., N.Y., Jan 1, 1902". This pack is MINT and contains 10 non-filter cigarettes. A scarce and interesting addition to any Cigarette pack collectors collection.

Please note - this item is being sold for it's value as a historical collectible related to t206 trading cards, and not for the value of the tobacco contents of the package.

1. The value of this item is in the collectible packaging, not in the tobacco itself.

2. The package contains the original cigarettes, stale and 100 years old, and the tobacco within is not for consumption.

3. The collectible tobacco packaging is not available at any retail outlet, and the packaging substantially exceeds the value of any tobacco cigarettes contained in any cigarette packs currently available in stores.

4. All bidders must be at least 18 years of age.

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Posted By: scgaynor

David, I would have to disagree with the "intelligent" comment in your last post. I don't think that anybody who knows what they are talking about would believe that there is a Baseball card in this pack.

Let me break this down for Adam and the people who are having a hard time with the description.

"Early Obak Cigarettes Complete Unopened Box BASEBALL."

Above is the title, full of key words to show up in the ebay seach engine. This is ebay 101 for the novice out there. "Early" means that it is not a modern pack, "Obak" is the brand, "Cigarettes" are what the pack contained. "complete" means that they are all there. "Unopened" means that the seal is not broken. "Box" is what houses the cigarettes and "Baseball" is there so that the items shows up in a search engine.


"Full unopened box of Obak Cigarettes."

That means that they are all there, the box is complete with the unbroken tax stamp.

"The tax stamp on top of the box is unbroken."

There are not any rips and the stamp is sealed to the box.

"Early packages of Obak Cigarettes contained Baseball Tobacco
Cards that featured players from the Pacific Coast League and Northwest
League."

For this I refer you to page 1409-1411 in the 2003 Standard Catalog (It is he newest version I have sitting around). However if what I have written in the item description is too complex, then the description in the standard catalog will be way over your head.


"This box is NM and super clean."

NM stands for Near Mint and "clean" is a term used to describe items that have little to no flaws.


"Add $6 for shipping.'

Don't add $5, don't add $7.



If I had to take the time to break down item descriptions like this for all of the Adam's out there, I would never get any work done.

I have NEVER intentionally mis-represented and item that I have sold and Adams comment that I should be sued is an attack on my business practices and ethics. Anybody who has met me in person will tell you that I am very friendly and easy to talk too, but I have a very low tolerance for bullsh*t, and as far as I am concerned, this certainly falls into the bullsh*t category.

Scott

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Posted By: runscott

I think I'm about to appear stupid, but why would no intelligent person believe that there is a card in the box?

I'll repeat, I really enjoy Scott's auctions and only rarely have had any complaints about his descriptions. I've talked with him, emailed for description clarifications, even returned an item or two that I wasn't happy with. Scott and his people are friendly, cheerful, and have never argued with me when I had a problem. That is NOT true of most ebay sellers, which is why I prefer Scott's auctions over most others.

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Posted By: scott

Mr.Gaynor , though I have followed your auctions in the past and find you sell some great material. Your wrong on this one. I feel the copy IS misleading. I mean no disrespect. My thought was the listing may have been done in haste omitting more key information. LOL

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Posted By: scgaynor

Scott F., I have enjoyed having you as a customer, and have always tried to answer your questions. Even though this is a full time job, I enjoy discussing the material.

In response to this one, I would say that nowhere, and I repeat, nowhere does it state that there is a Baseball card in this package.

I didn't mention that there was no Baseball card because I rarely state the obvious.As I mentioned earlier, I write most of my descriptions for the advanced collector, and if ever there was a piece that didn't appeal to most novice collectors, this is it. What advanced collector out there thinks that there is a card in this pack?

Scott

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Posted By: scgaynor

Just as a follow-up, on the advice of Leon, and to avoid future confusion, I did add to the item desciption that there is no card in the pack. I can't amend the basic description since the item already has bids, but I did add it at the bottom.

Scott

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Posted By: Richard Dwyer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the tax stamp has "twelve" on the bottom of the tax stamp. I always thought that Baseball tobacco cards came in boxes of ten cigarettes. (?)

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Posted By: scott

Thank you. I look forward to viewing and buying more items from your company.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

By your own admission you know there is no way any baseball cards are in that package, yet you feature the word baseball prominently, go into depth about the baseball card issues of Obak, and list the item in the prewar baseball card section. You have violated at least two Ebay policies I know of:

1. Key word spamming: By your own admission, you include the term baseball in the listing so that it shows up on ebay searches for baseball items even though this is not a baseball item. That is key word spamming.

2. You know that the item does not have any baseball cards in it, yet you listed it in the baseball card section rather than in the Tobbaciana section where tobacco memorabilia is supposed to go.

The unstated purpose of your actions was to cause baseball collectors to go to this listing and to bid on this item. It is likely that many novice collectors would be misled into believing there is a possibility of a baseball card in this lot. Your actions are no different than those of any other vendor of non-baseball items and/or non-card items who chooses to place his listing in the prewar baseball card section. IMHO actions like this constitute unfair trade practices subject to legal action under California's unfair trade practices laws.

Please consider your listing selections more carefully next time.

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Posted By: hankron

Personally, I don't mind the pack being listed in the baseball card section and being promoted to baseball fans. Without a card it still likely is of interest to Obak baseball card collectors. It just should have been clear that the bidder shouldn't expect a card inside. It's a stretch to expect even experienced card collectors to know that a pack with 'Liggett & Myers' printed on the bottom won't contain a card.

The description was ammended, so no big deal.

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Posted By: runscott

I recently started selling stuff on ebay again (and buying), and was in a real quandry as to what category to list vintage baseball memorabilia. Originally I was going to put old baseball photos in the "photos" section, 1800's baseball publications in the "antique books" section, etc.

But there are two goals you have when choosing a category:
1) you want people to see it so you can sell it higher.
2) you want people to see it because they are looking for it and WANT to find it.

So I think it's completely appropriate for Scott to list his cig pack in pre-30 cards - after all, it's an item that will be of interest to OBAK card collectors who want to create a nice display, or who collect items related to OBAK's. This pack of Scott's is a good cheap way of getting a display piece without paying a fortune for a similar-looking pack that actually might have a card. If I were an OBAK card collector and was looking for OBAK-related items, I would be very glad that Scott made it easy for me to find this item. The argument against this is that "card purists" have to look at some non-card stuff. IMO, this might help expand their collecting horizons, or at least expose them to card peripheral items that they might eventually collect, in my case photographs and publications (we already have vintage categories for some equipment categories, like gloves).

I eventually decided to list my items in the categories that I thought the interested buyers were most likely to be looking, not necessarily in the CORRECT categories according to ebay rules. Who's going to pay me more for an 1870 baseball guide - an Old Judge card collector, or an antique book collector? ...and photos? same deal.

Personally, I would like to see two new categories: "pre-1930 baseball memorabilia" and "pre-1900 baseball memorabilia". And, of course, similar categories for "replicas" and "reprints".

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Posted By: scgaynor

Adam, you are really showing your ignorance. Once again, your reading comprehension is your problem.

I am not violating any of ebay policies.

1) Key word spamming. Please see my earlier post about Obak brand cigarettes containing Baseball cards from 1909-1911. You can confirm this by looking under Obak in the Minor League section of the latest Standard Catalog. It should seem pretty clear from the category the item is listed in, as well as my description that Baseball Card collectors are my target audience, therefore the term "Baseball" in the title is not violating any key word spamming rules.

2) Why would I list the item exclusively in the Tobacco section where it gets buried? As stated before, Baseball card collectors are my target audience. The item is also posted in the Tobacco section. Again, not an ebay violation.

3)

"The unstated purpose of your actions was to cause baseball collectors to go to this listing and to bid on this item."

I am actually stating that I want Baseball Card collectors to bid on the item, that should seem pretty clear.

"It is likely that many novice collectors would be misled into believing there is a possibility of a baseball card in this lot."

I already covered this in at least two above posts. I am directing my descriptions towards advanced collectors, if a novice does not know what he is bidding on, I can't hold his hand through every purchase.

"Your actions are no different than those of any other vendor of non-baseball items and/or non-card items who chooses to place his listing in the prewar baseball card section."

Because of the Obak reference, in my opinion, and apparently those of the current 11 different bidders, This is a card item, pay attention!

"IMHO actions like this constitute unfair trade practices subject to legal action under California's unfair trade practices laws."

If I wanted your opinion, I would have asked for it, and since you are wrong, it does not matter anyway.

You really should do a better job of preparing your case before presenting it in an open forum. I hope that you do a better job for your clients than you have exhibited here.

Scott

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Posted By: Richard dwyer

I believe it's the buyer's responsibility to ask questions if uncertain. I did so with one of SCGaynor's other listings. He was honest and answered back promptly. If he didn't respond back to my email, I wouldn't be bidding on his stuff.

I have in the past made mistakes on one of my listings. Wasn't intentionally done. (Drum tobacco pouch). At the time, I didn't know any better. Still, the item sold for a fair price only because it was related somewhat to T206 cards.

If you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't be bidding! Buyer beware.

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Posted By: John

At the risk of looking like as Lee would say a “dunderhead”?

After a long days work I found myself sitting down in front of eBay searching the many auctions. I came across yours Scott and am currently bidding on several of your lots including the for mentioned pack of Obaks. At first glance of your original description I thought it had a chance of having a card inside too. Then after I used some resources I researched it some more and realized I was reading into the description too much.

I normally wouldn’t even jump in on this but you made a comment that made me raise an eyebrow. “I rarely state the obvious” TV infomercials for exercise equipment, diet pills and get rich quick programs rarely state the obvious either. They never come out and say you wont be a fat bastard anymore or that you will be so rich you can bang supermodels. But all the ads imply it or hint by filling their ads with hot-bodied successful looking people. Hey I cant bust your chops too much, your are trying to maximize your sales potential, and that’s capitalism baby. But even you have too agree it is a little misleading I’m not exactly new to the hobby and I even I thought for a second there might be a card based on the description . And I would venture to say that some of the current bidders are under the impression that there’s a chance of a card too, unless they have noticed your bottom update.

Well with that aside you have put together some nice items. I hope I’m lucky enough to win a few. Good luck with your sales.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You know, the more you insult me, the more obvious it is that you don't want to address what you actually wrote. My commentary at the top was unnecessarily polemical, for which I apologize (I must have had a lousy day). None of that changes the wording in the listing, however, which is misleading.

Just so there is no mistake, here is your description of this item, verbatim:

"Early Obak Cigarettes Complete Unopened Box BASEBALL.
Full unopened box of Obak Cigarettes. The tax stamp on top of the box is unbroken. Early packages of Obak Cigarettes contained Baseball Tobacco Cards that featured players from the Pacific Coast League and Northwest League. This box is NM and super clean. Add $6 for shipping."

You said "early packages" of Obak Cigarettes contained baseball cards. You described the item as an "early Obak cigarettes complete unopened box." A box is a type of package. When I read this with the word "baseball" right beside it and with the item listed in the prewar baseball cards listings, I certainly thought that you were suggesting this early Obak package might have a baseball card in it. Clearly, I was not the only one with this reaction.

One of the things I did manage to learn in law school is that the best way to say something is to come out and say it as clearly and unambiguously as possible [for you dead language fans, "expressio unis excludio alteris" [probably misspelled]: the expression of one thing excludes the alternative]. If your listing had said initially that there cannot be any baseball cards in this package/box, there would never have been an initial post on this issue. It didn't, though, did it? Taking what you wrote in the best light for you, you made an ambiguous choice of words that needed correction, which you have now made. At worst, however, it would be easy to conclude that you intentionally chose your wording so as to suggest that the item might have a baseball card in order to raise bidders' interest in it while planning to use the distinction between "package" and "box" to explain any subsequent discrepancies.

You've been honest in your dealings with me and others I know and I've never had a bad or cross time with you, so I prefer to conclude that you simply chose poor wording for the listing.

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Posted By: FatBoy

When you resorted to name calling, "JACKASS" to be specific, you reduced the nature of a public topic to a personal assault. Now you scurry and hide behind the professional veil of lawyering with your overly specific technical replies, citations of civil law and disingenuous contriteness . I would submit, in the future, you are more circumspect in choosing your words so as not to suffer us your obtuseness.

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Posted By: scgaynor

I was not really upset at the name calling or even the criticism of my auction description. I was upset at the suggestion that I my description was intentionally misleading.

It is true that I have an obligation to get as much money as possible for my consignor, but not at the expense of my reputation. It is my reputation that makes people feel comfortable sending me thousands of dollars through the mail, or allows me to leave clients houses with tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in consignments. That is the reason that I defend it so aggressively.

Scott

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Posted By: MW

Fatboy,

Forgive me for saying so, but I thought Warshawlaw's last response made perfect sense.

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Posted By: scgaynor

MW, actually it didn't make "perfect sense" at all, it was off on a several points, but it was not worth it to keep arguing, so I let it drop.

Scott

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Posted By: MW

scgaynor,

He apologized for his initial statements and the rest of his analysis was right on the money. I don't see what the problem is.

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Posted By: scgaynor

One of the reasons that I was fine with letting it drop was because he apoligized, but he still never completely let go of the suggestion that I was somehow being intentionally misleading. And then there was that whole "distinction between package and box" thing......

I don't see the point in trying to continue to convince him, so I stopped.

Scott

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Posted By: steve k

Trying to convince a lawyer to stop arguing? That is like trying to convince a dog to stop barking

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Posted By: Elliot

FWIW, I don't think anybody that has dealt with Scott thought that he was deliberately misleading, and I find it hard to believe that his reputation has been impaired. However, the listing could have been clearer, but when you are listing a lot of items sometimes an assumption could be made which would result in some additional verbiage not being added that would add clarity.

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Posted By: John

Is this a typical ending price or was the final bidder under the impression that we have posted about above. Not trying to beat a dead horse but it just seems high or maybe I’m just removed from the market place and have no idea of value on the above cigarette pack. I would have guessed a lot lower. I mean the Piedmont display piece I thought would have a larger target audience than the Obak pack for display.

Just Curious that's all not trying to beat anyone up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5124285201&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT>

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5124285375&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT

Forgot links sorry.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

That's a new one for me...

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Posted By: John

My guess:

For What It's Worth......Maybe

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Posted By: Elliot

right, John

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Posted By: Steve T.

Coming out of lurk mode for a moment...

This is a very interesting thread. IMHO, the EBAY post is definitely misleading. It might not be deliberately misleading, but it's misleading. Any average collector reading it would think there /might/ be a card inside and the description leads you down that path.

This could have been easily solved by writing: "Though this box doesn't contain a card, early OBAK boxes...blah blah..."