Peck & Snyder OFFICIAL answer!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

HERE IS THE OFFICIAL PECK & SNYDER ANSWER FROM DAVID HARRIS, THE PECK & SNYDER WEBPAGE HISTORIAN:

By May 1, 1870, Peck & Snyder had moved from "22 Ann Street" to "126 Nassau Street."

This information comes from a copy of a bill with that date at the top that shows an address of "22 Ann Street" that is CROSSED OFF and a stamp on the header that says: "MOVED to 126 Nassau Street."

SO ... there can really be no doubt now that the "22 Ann Street" cards are OLDER than the "126 Nassau Street" cards ... although clearly ALL of them are superb pieces of American history.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I guess an argument can still be made that BOTH stores were operating in 1869 and that the "22 Ann Street" store MERGED into the "126 Nassau Street" store...

but this would lead one to seriously question why Peck & Snyder would ever put the Ann Street address on any of their cards if they were already operating out of the Nassau Street store at the same time and planning on staying at the much larger 126 Nassau for decades (as they eventually did).

It also does not match up with what we know about Peck & Snyder having a store at "105 Nassau Street" in 1868. If they were already using Nassau Street as their mailing address in 1868 ... why would they ever put the Ann Street address on their cards at all UNLESS they had moved from Nassau Street to Ann Street.

In other words, if Peck & Snyder had moved their sporting goods store directly from 105 Nassau Street to 126 Nassau Street ... there would NEVER have been any reason to put "22 Ann Street" ANYWHERE as a mailing address ... since they would always have had that Nassau Street address that they apparently wanted.

The "Ann Street" cards were clearly made BEFORE May 1, 1870 ... whereas there is certainly some question about when the "126 Nassau Street" cards were made.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Mr. Harris says that he has been doing this research at the Library of Congress and the NYPL for 20 years...

and he is certain that Peck & Snyder only operated ONE store at a time.

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Posted By: Julie

...

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Sorry.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

We still do not have a definitive answer. If they operated a corporate office or mail order office on Ann Street, it is possible that they closed the office, and moved the office into the Nassau Street location some time before May 1870. After all, wouldn't it make sense to send a bill to a corporate office (or PO Box if they existed) rather than to a retail establishment if such an office existed? We know that they were the largest Sporting Goods Mail Order company, so having an office for this purpose may have made perfect sense. This would easily explain it, without the 2 store theory (which I am not willing to rule out either, since no one is alive today that was there to verify this). We can think of many possible scenarios here. What if we were to find the Nassau street location mentioned prior to 1869 (which is entirely possible)? Then what? We now know that whatever was at the Ann Street location was gone by May 1870, but we really don't know exactly when the Nassau Street location opened. Believe me, I know this is splitting hairs. I originally posted this because I thought it was interesting that there are 2 addresses, and hoped it would fuel some good discussions (which it did). I never expected to get a definitive answer, and I still don't believe that we have one. Short of finding a accurate company history (not sure if it exists) or inventing a time machine, the only thing that I am sure of is that we will never know for sure.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Where is the Peck & Synder website that you mentioned?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

But you forget ... I purchased that Time Machine that was on EBay last year for a million dollars!

Here is the receipt that I mentioned, and it seems to me that the stamp was made to show that they moved OUT of the Ann Street address on May 1, 1870:

This doesn't look to me like the closing of just an administrative office ... but what do I know?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I just have a hard time believing that Peck & Snyder would use the 1869 Cincinnati Team on trade cards from 1870, when they clearly have other trade cards from 1870 that show 1870 teams. Maybe they only had 2 locations for a short period of time (several months?) while transitioning from 1 location to the other? I'm sure that it would take a much longer time to transfer inventory back in those days than it does today.

Also, the reason that I think there is a possibility that the Ann Street location may have had something to do with mail orders is that both Ann Street backs emphasize:

1.) Write for a Catalog (one of them even mentions call for a catalog)

2.) Goods sent throughout the country

While the Nassau Street cards appear to be an advertisement for a retail outlet, and catalogs are not mentioned at all.

I still think there are as many questions as there are answers.

Please post the stamp that you are referring to if possible. Thanks.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

but the image he sent me is too big.

I will try to shrink it and post it from the office tomorrow morning.

HERE: Cut and paste this link and it should work for you:



Neat piece of history.

[edited to make image viewable]

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Posted By: Elliot

why does it say "removed" instead of "moved". Perhaps they moved more than once in a short period of time.

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Posted By: bcornell

Hal-

On behalf on everyone, thanks for your mighty effort on this topic.

Bill

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

That is a very cool document, but I'm not sure that it gives us any new information. It could easily mean:

- Incorrect invoice was used (Ann St vs Nassau St)

- Order came into Ann Street, but products were "Removed" from Nassau Street on that date (some kind of internal stamp)

It certainly doesn't prove whether or not the Nassau Street location was operational in 1869.

Another observation: It seems very unlikely that they would move their entire operation from 105 Nassau St in 1868 to 22 Ann St in 1869 to 126 Nassau St in 1870.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

In practicality, you are correct in that the possibility of two separate stores still exists even in spite of this invoice.

I am not sure why Mr. Harris is certain about Peck & Snyder only having ONE store location open at a time, but he has done the research for 20 years and I have to defer to him on that.

I do note, however, that they have actually CROSSED OUT the words "Ann Street" on this invoice ... and probably on ALL of the ones that they had remaining ... so that they could keep using them for the 126 Nassau Street address (with the stamp).

If "22 Ann Street" was simply closing down their store and moving things into an already existing "126 Nassau Street" store ... there is no reason to go back and CROSS OUT the "Ann Street."

In other words, if my business moves tomorrow to a new address ... we will NOT go back into the files and CROSS OUT the old address on all of our old documents and put a NEW address on them.

BUT ... if my business was to unexpectedly move tomorrow to a prime new location that JUST became available on Nassau Street (which is probably what happened) ... then we would have NO CHOICE but to use the old invoices until we could get some new ones ordered.

We would do EXACTLY what they did: Get a stamp made quickly and cross out the old address.

Also, in looking at the invoice, it doesn't look like it has anything to do with a catalog order, or a large order that couldn't be filled from one store.

It looks like a very detailed and formal receipt that someone took a lot of trouble to have printed back in 1869... so I doubt they would go to the trouble and expense to have two separate stores with two separate sets of their own individualized invoices, etc. Remember, this is pre-telephone and pre-network, so having two separate stores 80 yards apart would require DOUBLE staffing and DOUBLE rent and a lot of running back and forth.

Why would ANYONE go through all of those expenses to have two separate stores ONLY ONE BLOCK AWAY from each other?

Also, note the HEADING of this invoice. It does NOT say anything about the "Ann Street" address being ONLY for "ice skates" or anything like that. It clearly has the entire title for Peck & Snyder, and it seems clear that at one point they were selling baseball supplies from this Ann Street location.

But again, I think the fact that the CROSSED OUT the old "Ann Street" address is the most telling fact in arguing that this was a "replacement" address and not just an invoice being "removed" from one existing store to another.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

You are going to continue to "build your case" as you always do to achieve your desired results, rather than looking at all possibilities, seeking the truth, and conceeding that there are some questions that can't be answered. I'm willing to bet you would be much more interested in my theories if I had sold you the card with the 126 Nassau Street back. That's what you do in your professional life, and you have every right to do it here. I'm guilty of this as well, since I will admit that I am not disappointed that there are several viable theories that place both cards in 1869 (which is what I believed from the start). You have uncovered lots of interesting information, but in my opininion, you have done nothing to DEFINITIVELY prove that the Ann Street location was an actual store rather than some sort of office, that one location is older than the other, that both locations could not have overlapped and excisted at the same time in 1869, that Peck & Snyder would choose to use an 1869 team photo in 1870 when 1870 photos were readily available, or that the 126 Nassau Street location did not exist before 1870. At the same time, I haven't proven any of my potential theories either. They are just that.....theories. I remain convinced that we will never know for sure, and at this point, I'm not even sure if it matters. You can draw any conclusions that you like. I'm done debating.

Sorry for taking up so much of the board's space.

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Posted By: JC

Maybe Peck & Snyder "Drop ships" from the 22 Ann Street company. The company "private Labels" the ice skates for Peck and Snyder. The 22 Ann St company send customers pick tickets, that have Peck and Snyder name on it, with the product. This is a fairly common practice now-a-days.

That theory I would buy into. I think Hal's theory is correct so far though. I am now looking at these cards as still the same but with different back variations. Time to start collecting again.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I don't consider your input to be a waste of anyone's time on this board. This whole thread has garned a lot of attention from curious onlookers, because after all we are dealing with baseball card HISTORY here.

If our collecting World is going to consider these Peck & Snyder cards to be the FIRST widely issued baseball cards... then we should know as much about them as possible... even if all we can do is discuss various THEORIES and how or why they may or may not be true.

I don't see this discussion as any different than the DOZENS of posts over the years about the M101-4 and M101-5 sets and all of their different backs and how those backs can be used to date the cards.

Likewise, I think T206 collectors can use the "Factory" on the back of the card to tell whether or not those cards were printed in 1909 or 1910 or 1911.

Yes, you and I are obviously lobbying for our respective cards ... and I'm sure everyone else would do the same ....

but in reality we are BOTH dealing with VERY SCARCE cards where one example is not really any more "common" than the other. Thus, regardless of which theory is true, neither card loses any value whatsoever.

It's not like mine is a "Ty Cobb" back while yours is a "Sweet Caporal" or anything like that!

Here's the good news: I am never going to sell my card anyway, so there is never going to be some big auction house writing up a bunch of "puffery" about how my card is "so much better" than all the rest because it is older, blah, blah, blah. As you pointed out, nobody could ever really prove this anyway.

I would love my little card even if it had the 126 Nassau back ... and I will never hesitate to purchase one that has the 126 Nassau back if I see one for sale... assuming the price is right!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

What NEITHER of us knows is whether or not there is an 1869 Peck & Snyder card floating around out there with a "105 Nassau Street" address on it!!

That is CLEARLY the earliest documented address for the company (1868 catalog in the Library of Congress)...

so we BOTH may be wasting our time if somebody shows up with one of these bad boys!

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Have to agree 100% with Andy here.
So far, there's NO definitive answer to the main question posted.
I do think that Hal is on the right track and someday the answer will be uncovered, but right now they are just theories.
Don't have any doubt that this is a great and important research project, but to think that a mistery of this magnitude was solved within less than a week of research and that the main piece of the puzzle was an old company invoice (Nice item btw), just keeps this as an unsoved mistery.

Great topic indeed and hope to read more about it in the future.

Best,

Jimmy

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think what was even more bizarre than us coming up with these theories in a week ...

was us finding a guy out there who is a descendant of the Peck & Snyder founder and who has been researching this same issue for 20 YEARS!!

I guess there is someone for everything out there in the big world.

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Posted By: ramram

If it were a criminal case I think Hal couldn't get the conviction, yet, but in a civil trial, I think he's proved enough. Not important though, because it's a great discussion not a trial. With the absolute booming in popularity of baseball during this period, it's no wonder that P & S would have been moving to larger space over a short period of time.

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Posted By: andy becker

not only that someone has reaserch this issue for 20 years, but that hal actually found the guy. kudos hal.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The Peck & Snyder "historian" also told me that Andrew Peck's obituary says that he was an orphan ... then fought in the civil war ... then returned to New York and started stitching baseballs in 1866 in the top floor of 105 Nassau Street.

There are some Peck & Snyder ads that list the date of founding at 1859 ... but the "historian" believes that the company STARTED out with skates and bows and arrows and so forth in 1859 ...

but then Peck went into the Civil War and fell in love with baseball (like everyone else) and returned to New York with something NEW to sell out of his stores -- BASEBALL EQUIPMENT!!!

Very interesting old history!

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Posted By: Joe P.

A most interesting pursuit of a very interesting question.
My regret is thus.
During the late 1940's I attended high school in the lower east side of Manhattan in NYC, I was not far from Nassau and Ann St.
Historically, since the Dutch settlement of New Amsterdam, it's not only an old area, but the original melting pot.
While I was attending school in that area, there were many of the buildings still standing from well before the turn of the century.
Had I known about Peck and Snyder during that time, I would have taken a trolley or the 3rd Ave El to the City Hall area, - walked around Nassau and Ann St, and checked out the site.
A great thread.

Beam me up Scotty.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Just think ... I'll bet there was a whole box of MINT 1869 Peck & Snyder cards still sitting in that discarded building on 126 Nassau Street!

You were that close to the "find of the century."

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Posted By: Joe P.

DAMN!

Shoot me back down Scotty!

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

(Thought I'd have to go to the Oxford English Dictionary for this, but there it was, in the Webster's):

It's both a trasitive verb("remove the family to more suitable dwellings" "remove it, damn it!") OR an intransitive verb(the family removed to the suburbs," "the store removed to a better location"--even though we usually say "move" when we mean moving (changing location) today. I remembered reading in 19th century books that other use of "removed," as in "I am removing to North Valley street."

So the invoice most probably means "we have moved to Nassau street," given the other features it presents.

My poor little card...second best...sniff. That's O.K. But I DO have to sell it some day...great research, guys

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Very helpful insight!!!

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Julie,

What this proves is that there was no longer a Peck & Snyder location at 22 Ann Street as of May 1870. No one doubts this. It doesn't prove that there was not a Peck & Snyder location @ 126 Nassau Street prior to that date. It is quite possible that if there were 2 locations (even for a short time), May 1870 would be the date that they consolidated all operations into one location. Maybe Hal will find a GRAND OPENING sign from the 126 Nassau Street store to put this to rest

I know that I said I was done, but I couldn't resist.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Surely Peck & Snyder would want to ADVERTISE any such "Grand Opening" whenever it took place ...

so maybe someone will find that kind of advertisement in the 1870 New York Times if they look hard enough.

But I can guarantee you that I won't be making any trips to Manhattan to do the searching!

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

Your response may have been more accurate before you changed the 1869 New York times to the 1870 New York Times in your post.

Didn't anyone ever tell you to go with your first instinct, because it is usually correct?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

It was my "first instinct" that led me to overpay dearly for your card in the first place!

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I told you that your first instict is correct. The more Peck & Snyders that I look at, the more I realize just how nice the photo on the one that I sold you is. I'm convinced that there couldn't be a card with better quality photo out there. In time, it may end up that you got a bargain.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Leon is going to test the waters at the National with his SGC 50 P&S card ...

so we'll see if he can get the same big chunk of change that you did!

If so ... then certainly the price of ALL of these can only go UP from there.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Hal, you are you trying to catch David in the number of posts to forum? :-p

Jay

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Posted By: Joe P.

But no one just leaves the Cosa Nostra.

In keeping with the scenario,
Boss Tweed

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

See Jay ... it's not about post count.

But just when I think I am out of this thread ...

they keep PULLING ME BACK IN!

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Posted By: Joe P.

Hopefully one from the 1865 - 1875 era.
With a possible close up of the City Hall and Lower East Side area.

The request is not just for my interest to see if there were any changes to the streets then vs current maps, but also one from William Marcy Tweed.
His memory has failed him, and he's trying to retrieve some of his plunder.

For those of you that are not familiar with The Boss, he was from that period, and he controlled everything, including Peck's removes.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/cgi-bin/page.cgi/jb/recon/boss_1

About a possible scan of the vintage maps, I'm very serious about that. ... Thanks.

Beam me up Scotty!

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Posted By: Julie

"The Bone...." something. Murder mystery. Guy kept killing people in--places in Manhatten that nobody knew still existed! beautiful girl with big eyes the love interest, and active cop. Of course at the end the paralysis goes away--at least partly. With her around, it's understandable.

"The Bone Collector"!

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Posted By: Joe P.

I ask for a vintage map scan.

The High Priestess of Scans.
The last word in images.
The scanner's scanner.
The scanner that would scan even when no one asks for a scan.

The Bone Collector???

Maybe my request was to direct and obvious?
I should have used the sly approach?
Something like, "I wonder if there's a way of checking the location of the streets in Manhattan during the 1865 - 1875 period?"

The High Priestess of Scan was the right actor, on cue, but in the wrong play.
Luv ya Julie, but you blew your chance for raving reviews of what is normally your specialty act.

A map - a map, my kingdom for a vintage NYC map.

Beam me up Scotty

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

If I remember correctly ... the Bone Collector was all about finding CLUES from passages in vintage books and maps ...

so maybe Julie has left a clue embedded somewhere in her message to help you can find your map?

Have you tried re-arranging the first letters of every word?

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Posted By: Joe P.

Big Julie, and I'm not talkin about "Guys & Dolls" is always on top of da situation.
Ya tinking she's comin in from left field again, but all da time she's ona higher hill, and on top of da situation.
First letta of every word eh?
Now I gotta see da "Bone Collecta."
Sounds like anota hobby.
All dis for one stinkin map.

Get me outa heah Scotty.

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Posted By: Julie

I mentioned "The Bone Collector" because the problem REMINDED me of the movie. New York City of over 100 years ago--some of it still exists (movie); we need to find a map of N.Y.C. from over 100 years ago (problem).

Why do I have the feeling that you guys are just writing away about things that interest you, sometimes on the previous subject and sometimes not, and I'm constantly on trial?

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's all a grand conspiracy to slowly drive you insane :-p


Jay

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

If anyone has access to the New York City library they could look in these atlas books and find this information. When I lived in Boston in the 60's and 70's and was doing historic renovation I would use these atlases all the time and could always find maps showing lots, footprints of buildings, new buildings and renovations to buildings that altered the footprint of the building. The atlases were updated every year or two. The atlases go back to the early 19th century. It might be possible to find the information on line. The Atlases are very beautiful. I have a 1868 Boston Atlas which is a cherished possession.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

As of yesterday, I am paying someone at the NYPL $75/hour to research the old city directories and old New York Times to see if they can come up with some definitive answers on addresses for Peck & Snyder in 1868, 1869 and 1870. As Andy suggested, there may be some "Grand Opening" ads in the May 1, 1870 edition of the Times.

How's that for pulling this thread back on track with the original topic?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I suggested that if there are Grand Opening Ads, they would most likely be in 1869!

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

It would seem to me more reasonable for a store's first ads (or first ads in a new format--with a team of baseball players on the front) to be MORE CONSERVATIVE, i.e., ordinary printing, and then, with more confidence in the new format, branch out into characature drawing of the owner (if that is what the little man is). You wouldn't FIRST make a characature drawing (and put it on several differenrt cards) and then retreat to ordinary ad printing.

On the other hand, the store might well have both ads running simultaneously--one for more display situations, and one for business situations...

Or I could go stand on my head...

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Julie,

I don't understand your logic. I believe the printing process is the same, characature or not. Some of the Ann Street cards have a detailed drawing of a period Ice Skate, which to me, is no different than a drawing of Andrew Peck.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I'm talking about their perception of how the public will react to their advertising: think they would begin more conservatively (a skate is NOT the same as a funny drawing of a man!), and get more creative with success. Just--the way I would do it, I guess.