1873 Boston Cabinet in Mastronet Auction

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Posted By: HalleyGator

I know Kevin Struss wants everyone to bid as much as possible in the Mastro auction...

but can you guys please find it in your hearts NOT to outbid me on the 1873 Boston Cabinet card??

Or ... at least let me do you the favor of informing you that I have placed a high "max bid" ... so I can save you the trouble of hoping that you will be able to get the card "for a song."

IN RETURN -- as a good and faithful board member from the FullCount days pre-Network54 -- I hereby agree to NOT bid on ANYTHING ELSE in the auction...

including the 1914 CJ Matty that I would LOVE to have ...

so that hopefully you guys can get some good deals as well.

There. I've made my plea. At least now if any of you win the 1873 card, you will know whose heart you have broken!!

And ... if you win ANYTHING ELSE ... I should get some credit for not bidding!!

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Posted By: HalleyGator

I also covet the Ty Cobb T206 with the Ty Cobb back ... and will agree to let it go without bidding.

But if I get outbid on the 1873 Boston cabinet...GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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Posted By: Hankron

PSA has mislabelled the item.

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Posted By: Halleygator

Hank, you are clearly a photo guru ... so how did they mislabel it?

Is it a CdV and not a cabinet?

Regardless ... the "piece of cardboard" has images of 3 Hall of Famers (Wright, Spaulding and Wright) that I need for my HOF collection ...

so I hope the mislabelling keeps everyone away!

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Posted By: Halleygator

Somebody just raised my bid by $1,000 ...

Come on, no fair!!

You want a piece of me?

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Posted By: Hankron

Due to its inbetween (and out of the ordinary) size, it's neither a cabinet card or a CDV. Substantially smaller than a cabinet card and larger than a CDV. I'm not aware of a standard name for this size, and would simply callit a 'card photograph' or 'photographic card.' These are generic names for all sizes of paper photographs pasted to cardboard or such mounts, and when in doubt what something is those are perfectly good names.

While this is a technicality, it doesn't mean it
insignificant. The names ('CDV' etc) are defined by their size (kind of like D and E are sizes for shoes, or A or AA for batteries), so when a knowledgeable photograph collector buys a 'cabinet card' he or she is expecting to receive a photograph of a certain size. Just as a baseball card collector will be dissapointed to find that the T3 is he receives in the mail is several inches or smaller than listed in SCD, a photograph collector may not be happy to find out this his photograph is a couple of inches smaller. Someone who calls it nitpicking, likely will get my point when they someday receive a AAA battery instead of a AA battery ('So it's got one extra 'A', what's the fuss?')

MastroNet's description makes the same 'cabinet' mistake. However, they list the size so there is no harm no foul. If the ordinary eBay seller incorectly says 'cabinet card' but clearly gives the measurement in the description, it's not a big deal. So, when in doubt, list the size of the photograph and there will be no issue.

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Posted By: Halleygator

Thanks a bunch for enlightening me!

Now I can hopefully use the terms at the PROPER times and not seem so stupid.

Or, I can just call everything a "baseball card" like I have always done and "pretend" to act like I know what I am doing!

The good news is that I just bought 35 back issues of Vintage Baseball Card magazine on EBay ... so sooner or later I should know what the heck is going on.

Until then ...

NOBODY should bid on the 1873 Boston card because it is NOT a cabinet and is therefore worthless!!

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Posted By: Hankron

I add that, just like AA and AAA batteries and size 9 and 10 shoes, the various names for the size of the mount ('cabinet card', 'CDV' and many others) were commercially standardized by their dimensions. Various national and internation companies manufactured cardboard mounts and sold them to photography studios. One can find (including on my site), long lists of standard sizes and their names. Names include 'promenade card', 'Swiss card,' 'Boudior card' and so on. There are so many names, one shouldn't even try to memorize them. As I meantioned earlier, when in doubt call one a 'card photograph' or 'photograph card' and give the measurement.

Cabinet cards and cartes de visite (aka CDVs) are the most commonly found and heard of.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Someone from Beantown is going to bid a boatload on this "card"

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Posted By: Hankron

Lastly I will point out that I'm well aware that MastroNet and PSA are not going to change their misnaming practices due to anything I say, but that doesn't make them any less incorrect. I'm also aware that both hold great influence over the hobby and many will adobt their usage of the terms. When you see one of these folks incorrectly use a term, invariably you will see other auction houses and individuals doing the same.

I've been trying for a long time to get MastroNet and other major sellers like to correctly use the term 'wirephoto,' but that's like titlting at Windmills.

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Posted By: runscott

Calling them all "cabinets" helps us to communicate better what we are talking about. Mastro didn't do it - it just happened as a matter of convenience.

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

after much debate with myself and a best 2 out 3 arm wrestling match, i decided not to bid on this auction Hal...There is one catch,since i really really really really really wanted this photographic card....you owe me big time! email me for my list of 10 demands(you can skip over demand #4 because the XFL went out of business 2 years ago,and i dont have the desire or flexibility to be a cheerleader anymore)

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Posted By: Hankron

Scott, I understand that. As I mentioned, whether or not something is technically a cabinet card, if the average seller includes the dimensions there's not a material problem and I don't object. MastroNet includes the dimensions, so I do not object to their description. I subscribe to the "no harm no foul" rule.

I will point out that, in photograph collecting, the size is a strong and often direct indication of a photo's value and rarity (the larger the more expensive to make). So, if instead of plus or minus 3 inches, I said plus or minus $500, I supect that most bidders would not condider it an immaterial technicality.

When someone shows me an image of an early photograph and asks me about its rarity and value, the fist think I will usually say is, "How big is it?"

This should suggest why I 'get technical' when it relates to the size of a photograph.

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Posted By: runscott

Collectors of "mounted baseball-related photographs" tend to call them either cdv's or cabinets (it's mounted and bigger than a cdv). Sometimes they are called "over-sized" cabinets or "large" cabinets, and in all cases the exact dimensions are either known by the collector if it is from a well-known series, or the dimensions are available upon request if not described in the auction.

I don't see a problem with Mastro calling the 1873 mounted photo a "cabinet" since they also gave the dimensions. I think that part of the reasoning behind this is that PSA doesn't slab photos, but does slab cards - calling this photo a "cabinet" makes it more legit for it to be in plastic prison. BTW, cabinets come in various sizes (as we define "cabinet"), while T3's only come in one size. If you received a T3 that was 2 x 3", it would be a reprint; however, if you received some small 1952 Bowman football cards, and some large ones, that would be okay, as long as they were one of the two originally produced sizes. Cabinets; however, according to baseball photo collector terminology, could be various sizes.

I realize that technically the descriptors we use are incorrect, and that "mounted photograph" purists probably get hernias when they see us failing to adapt their terminology (or slipping away from it), but the "cdv/cabinet" thing works well for us. If they were ESPN they could force us to use it (like RBI instead of RBIs)...I still say "RBI's".

But after having said all of this, I also think that everyone really appreciates your efforts to educate us on mounted photograph terminology - I even tried to use some of your designations on my web-site, but realized after I had completed the job that I screwed up in several instances (I tried to get fancy by using "imperial", and mis-applied it).

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Posted By: Rich Jacobs

David:

Is there any kind of a historical reference book that lists the known cabinet cards for professional players? Your website refers to a number of different photographers, and I've seen others listed at various times. It would be useful to know if there is a standard reference work dealing with the subject.

Thanks very much.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Are you just looking to upgrade?

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Posted By: Hankron

Rich, I don't know of such a listing, though it would be nice. As they are rare, someone with initiative could make a practical reference. It would be neat to produce a population count (known Anson cabinets = 40, known Al Spaliding = 5, Jim Creighton = 0). It would be a job for someone other than I, as making catalogs like that isn't my cup of tea.

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Posted By: HalleyGator

As the Governor said in "O Brother Where Art Thou":

"We're not one-at-a-timin' here Junior ... we're mass communicatin'!"

Translation: You're thinking too small Andy ... I'm looking to CORNER the MARKET.

If I own all of them ... then they either become PRICELESS ... or WORTHLESS!!

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Posted By: Halleygator

Somebody bumped me up another $1,200 today.

I guess somebody didn't get the memo ...

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

Do you really hope to win the "Cabinet", or are you just trying to drive up the price in order to increase the value of the one you already own? If you really want to win it, why do you continue to make statements that only serve to cost you more money?

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Posted By: Hankron

I owned the 'inferior' of the two known 1873 cards, and am first hand aware of the realized sale history. It is apparent that the convergence of the PSA holder, the sudden opinion that it's like a baseball card and the PSA registry has made the pricing go kablooey. When I sold mine I thought it was undervalued and perhaps time is giving it some justice.

The contrast is a bit light for my tastes, but it is a nice card. Very early for a major team (any photos of major teams before 1880 are rare), especially with all those stars. Also, there are very few card/photos depicting Spalding during his playing days. While I still won't call it a cabinet (because it isn't), I think it's a fine item, especially for someone looking to fill in the early HOFer holes in his wantlist.

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Posted By: HalleyGator

Andy:

I am the high bidder, and I want everyone to stay away....

how is that "driving the price up"?

If I am missing something, PLEASE let me know.

The Mastro auction stays open all night ... so it's not like anyone can "snipe" at the very end.


Then again, you are indeed correct in that the price of mine goes up as this one goes up, so I won'b terribly heartbroken if someone outbids my HIGH max bid.


If I were truly evil ... I would put mine up for sale on EBAY right now with a high reserve ... to try and attract people AWAY from Mastro ...

and then close the bidding on mine after I win Mastro but before anyone could reach the ridiculous reserve.

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Posted By: runscott

But I think anyone who posts about items they are interested in winning in an auction, is shooting themselves in the foot if they really intend to win the item. It's sad, but it only takes one "enemy" or one person who gets some sordid pleasure from screwing others, to cost you $$$$.

Also, I have already had three board members tell me lots that they planned to bid on, and I had bids in on two of them already, and was contemplating bidding on the third. I don't like being put in that position.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Hal,

I believe that it's costing you money for the following reason. There are lots of collectors out there that will buy something that they don't necessarily need to have, if the price is right. That being said, they don't want to let an auction lot on a premium item go to someone else for a deal. Based on your posts, they can bid freely, to make sure that they don't feel bad about letting the lot go for cheap, without any real fear of having to pay for the lot. That potentially costs you money. Am I wrong?

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

did I sell you the 'inferior' one? I bought it from Broadway Rick's and sold it off ebay for about $3000-$3500 or so. Think it might have been you. It was definitely inferior to the one Hal's bidding on now. Originally, part of the Copeland collection it had a light spot on the front and a bit of paper loss on the back--didn't it? I always thought it was undervalued--especially given the age on it. Should have kept it! Then I could sell it to Hal! Good luck bidding on it out there.......

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Posted By: Hankron

Tom, you are correct.

Concerning bidding stragedy-- when you want to win something in an auction, the proper stragedy is to keep quiet (beyond getting private advice, opinions) and hope no one else notices the lot.

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Posted By: Hankron

Rather, I should say that's my bidding technique. Not wishing to say there aren't other effective ones ... I remember that when Dr. Koos saw something he liked, he would threatened to run over any potential competor with one of his Mercedes Benzes. I don't know of the effectiveness, but it is an intriguing angle that Hal might consider, as I'm sure Hal has a fine car.

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Posted By: HalleyGator

I guess I underestimated my reputation in the collecting community as "an idiot who will overpay for something he wants." I was counting on that to keep others away.


But then again ... I agree 100% that my strategy here is different because I already own one of these cards.


If someone outbids my MAX BID to ge this card ... I have spent NOTHING and increased the value of my card.


But obviously (since I can't retract my bid) I really do want this card.


Guys, these Mastro auction are WAY DIFFERENT than an EBay auction or some other small auction:.

1) An item on EBay or a small auction may very well slip by some collectors. An item on MASTRO is not going to slip by anyone serious.

2) An item on EBay has a DEFINITE ending time, so someone who is high bidder all week (at a low price) may get sniped at the very end. A MASTRO auction stays open WAY PAST the end time, so anyone who gets sniped at the "end" can STILL keep bidding!! Thus, nobody who is winning all week at a cheap price can get screwed without notice.


Believe me, if I kept quiet and let people bid on this thing all week ... and then I bid at the last minute ... all of the previous bidders would still have money to spend and would come back and out bid me.


My strategy is to let people know NOW that they are out of this race ... so hopefully they spend their money winning OTHER items ... and then don't come back to out bid me later.


Maybe it will work, maybe it won't ... but there is NO WAY that anyone can "SCREW" me by outbidding me out of spite since they will only be increasing the value of my other card.

Plus ... I will drive over them in my BMW M5.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Interesting post about bidding strategy. Personally Hal I think it is a bad idea to disclose your HIGH bid. I think this will encourage other bids and cost you some extra money even though you will still probably win the lot. It may increase the value of your other card, but maybe not. Look at the bidding on the Doyle-NY versus what Olbermann paid for an inferior copy several years ago. A high price on this card will not necessarily translate to a high price on a similar card next time it becomes available. Also, I know of at least three of these so whoever mentioned two known copies is off base.

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Posted By: halleygator

I guess I forgot to mention that I will NOT be AVAILABLE to "snipe" at the end of the auction ...

so I have NO CHOICE but to bid high now and hope I win.

I can't just wait and hope it stays low, because I will be out of commission when the auction ends.

Thus, my ONLY hope of winning was to bid REAL HIGH and try to scare other off.

Now, you may say -- what a fool to tell people this -- now they will know you are out of the race?

So what? I already bid the MOST I would pay for this card, so if I lose, I lose. I have the comfort of owning one already.

If someone else wants to own one, go for it, but I just wanted the nice people on this board to know that they can NOT win it cheap.

If I stopped even just ONE person from bidding out of kindness for me ... I saved money.

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Posted By: runscott

I don't know you personally, but are you the guy I saw the other day lighting a cigarette with a $1,000 bill? Really, good luck with your strategy - I can't say I plan to test it myself, but maybe it will work for you.

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Posted By: halleygator

Maybe that's my strategy ... I'm just CRAZY!!

Who would want to get in a bidding war with a CRAZY MAN??!!!


Actually, if they had "Buy-it-Now" I would be happy to pay the amount of my Maximum Bid and just end the darn thing ... so I really won't be too bummed if I end up doing this.

If I get it for less, great.

Unfortunately, the World will NEVER KNOW if I could have gotten it for even LESS had I played it silently...

but let them eat cake.

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Posted By: Elliot

Ok Hal, I'll bite----where will you be that you will be inaccessible by phone?

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Posted By: halleygator

Easy question...

I will be at home, asleep next to my wife ... WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THIS!!!!!

If I stay up past 10:00 pm EST, she knows something is wrong.

BUT ... If I get a phone call at 1:00 am EST ... there is NO WAY that I get out of explaining it all to her.

Remember: She thinks my "little boy" hobby is still just a hobby, and the cards are all useless.

They are not in the safe deposit box to protect them from the elements ... they are there to KEEP HER from giving them to the neighborhood kids!!!!!!

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Posted By: Hankron

I doubt that some of the 'bidding up' tricks that may be applied on eBay would be applied at MastroNet. The potential joker can't be sure that Hal's stated max is correct, so the person may end up with the high bid. Further, MastroNet doesn't allow bid retractions, and I doubt an person registered with MastroNet wants to get the reputation as a re******. Joking around with a $30 item on eBay item is one thing, a $10,000 item is another.

Also, it takes a lot more to be an active bidder at MastroNet then it doesn to be one at eBay. Lastly, my impressions of Hal have always been positive, and I'm sure most others have the same positive feelings. I can't imaging there are many people out to get him.

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Posted By: Hankron

In case anyone is wondering what the ****-ed word is (the site put in the *s for me). The word was a 'renigg' plus 'er.' Meaning someone who renigs on a bid (doesn't pay up). Obviously, Network54 thought I was trying to racially divisive.

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Posted By: halleygator

Thanks, Hankron.

I hope that I have never angered anyone on here, and I certainly have never "sniped" anyone (except you, Rich Jacobs, by mistake).

In fact, I have made a LOT of the people on this site VERY HAPPY by paying them their asking price for a LOT of my cards that I am sure they will recognize on my web site:

www.LewisBaseballCards.com

Believe me, I will let you guys know whether I win the thing or not ... and if I don't, I will watch to see if it ever surfaces for sale by a member of this board!!

PS - Hankron - check out the 1873 Cabinet in my collection (under "W" for Wright) and see if this is the one you once owned.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

David,

The acutal word is "renege" although most seem to believe it is "renig." So the person would be a "reneger" which isn't quite as close to the other word.

If one doesn't find enough racial insensitivity in using the word "reneger" they can still use "Indian Giver" however they are not exactly the same thing.

However, Leon & Scott B. would prefer we use the more politically correct term "Native American Giver."

-Ryan

P.S.

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Posted By: runscott

I would be more concerned with people who have a gripe with the board in general, but as David points out, that's much more unlikely with a high-dollar item being sold in a legitimate auction like Mastro. Still, I would rather be paranoid and take no chances.

But, David, it HAS happened in major auctions. I have even had "sort of" friends play games like that with me - no earthly idea why, but it happens. I can tell you, I have bids in on many Mastro lots right now, but I only communicate with the man in the igloo (you have to tell someone!).

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Posted By: Elliot

Hal, for your sake I hope Leon doesn't have you on his speed dial, otherwise the jig's up.

edited to correct anonymous post.

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Posted By: Hankron

Ryan, this then illustrates for all to see that I am so pure and innocent that I don't even know how to spell the word.

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Posted By: runscott

I'm guessing "acutal" is some strange derivative of the word "acute", which has as one of it's definitions "extremely sensitive" (though it means "sensitive" in a different sense).

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Yes, runscott, if only you had showed up at the National in Atlantic City...

I was anxious to share my extreme sensitivity with you. But alas, you were acutely aware of this.

Perhaps Cleveland?

-Ryan

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Posted By: runscott

No, sorry to thrash your huge ego, but I didn't make my Summer plans based around where Ryan would be at any given moment.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

David, the name you're looking for is VICTORIA card.

This type of card enjoyed a short period of moderate success.
The card measures 3 1/2 x 5 inches and the image 3 x 4 1/2 inches.
It's intermediate size offered little advantage over the carte de visite and none over the cabinet card.
Most Victoria cards date from 1872 to 1876.

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Posted By: leon

You better watch it ...you know these ARE auction nights.....LOL later

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Posted By: Anonymous

Hey....does anyone know if Hal is bidding on the 1873 Boston Cabinet card????????

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Posted By: halleygator

Like I said ... it's 10:00 EST ...

so the wife is ready for bed.

Good Night, guys. Hopefully I will wake up and be the winner.