Any interest in a 1952 Topps Mantle?

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Posted By: vorthian 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1847170762

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

....to see what it's worth 2.17753 years (and I KNOW with you that I must be precise) after I purchased it. And what better place to ascertain that information is there than Ebay? I'm surprised that it took you 28 hours, 58 minutes, and 12 seconds to post on this Board referencing it! Are you OK? Are you ill? You're usually very punctual and somewhat nauseatingly predictable! I was expecting a post from you over 25 hours ago. You had me very concerned about you!

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Posted By: David Vargha

Seeing if you can stick some poor sucker with a restored card like you were? An honest person would crack it out of that piece of dung holder it resides in and sell it with a legitimate description of its true condition. It would probably sell for more money than it will in that PRO holder anyway.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...in that "piece of dung holder it resides in", shouldn't it be MY decision whether to "crack it out" or not, since it was MY MONEY as well that bought the holder it resides in? Do you have any idea what the reserve is? Did you bother to ask???
I can blither along half-cocked making all kinds of suggestions on what you can, should, 'ought to do also, BUT I usually reserve judgement, unsolicited suggestions, and presumptuous pontificating BEFORE I'm aware of all the facts.

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

If it has been altered or restored, why don't you "anonymous" posters simply say so and let us know what's wrong with it?

Here is the description of "the card itself". Is this accurate? If so, then what's the big deal?

"...Now to the card itself: Deep, brilliant colors and an overall appearance reminiscient of the reknowned, historical, 1980s MR. MINT case/unopened pack 1952T find. Perfect focus and plate resolution without a trace of commonly seen "bubbles" (printing "donuts"). An immaculate surface highlighted by a deep aqua-green, perfectly even hued background. A slight, very normal, serrated cut, quite typical of even the highest of grade 52T high numbers on the long edges (a factory cut TRAIT of most 1952 to 1956 Topps cards). "

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...God's name are you babbling about Mr. Anonymous. Hey guys, can anybody on this Board tell this 'wanna-be' Pagliacci when they've bought from me/sold to me/saw an auction of mine in any way connected with a post-1970 card?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

... ALREADY SLABBED BY PRO FROM A WELL KNOWN DEALER, Mr. Anonymous (who is missing 80% of the facts, 90% of his brain power, and 100% of his testicles in posting anonymously). Why do message boards allow this nonsense? What? Are all the hateboards down today?

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

...included in the description? Or are you trying to pass your mistake on to someone else?

Also, I agree about anonymous posters. I guess they were just trying to avoid what you are about to heap on me.

Unfortunately, the Yee-ian style of auction description omissions is beginning to take hold among more respected collectors - this is the second one I've noticed today. I am discussing the other one offline, because it's a friend and it hasn't come up on the board yet. BTW, I applaud Henry for amending the Dimaggio description, but he gets two negative kudos for his job on the W514 Jackson - deplorable auction to say the least.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Isn't this the card that you pissed and moaned about ad nauseum a few weeks ago, the one that you said was altered and worthless? Where is your opinion now? I also see that you have opted for the scammers' dream, the private auction, undoubtedly to avoid having anyone from this board warn bidders about your true opinion of the card. If you did it in my state and were caught, you would go down on a textbook case of nondisclosure-type fraud. And no, placing a PRO card out there is not the same as telling the public that the card is altered. They can't see from the S*&% scans on eBay whatever it was that you and the others who viewed the card firsthand saw.

Weak, totally weak. I think I now speak for many in in stating that you have joined the Broadway Rick's and libertyforall's of the universe. It's just money, man. It isn't worth it. You make me sad.

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...sensible post! It's PRO-graded. PRO= the bottom of the Barrel in grading services. We KNOW this. PRO graded card buying is Russian Roulette with 5 bullets in a 6-shot revolver. Pro graded cards go for dimes on the dollar for what PSA/SGC/BGS cards go for on the open market because of this fact, and matter of factly cracking a card out of ONE particular service's slab ISN'T a guarantee that ANOTHER particular service it's submitted to won't RED FLAG it, as anybody on this Board who ever cracked an SGC card and gotten it back marked "altered" upon submitting it to PSA has experienced on rare occassion! OF COURSE, the incident of this occurring with PRO graded cards is magnified by a factor of 100! Am I guaranteering that the card will PASS PSA, SGC, or BGS inspection? NO! Did I describe perfectly the visual, physical attributes of the card? YES!
I'll make an interesting offer to all of the Anonymous posters and finger pointers who have and will come forward to post: Let's BOTH put our money and self-indulgent integrity where our mouths are. I'm in for $12,500 CASH (common fact). If you feel that the card should be locked away for all eternity or destroyed...DONE! Just come forward with $6,250 CASH and we BOTH own it. THEN, we can BURN IT, and share in our joint effort of philanthropy.
Even with all the negativity surrounding the card, I've had at least 20 emails from interested parties, both collectors and dealers, who wish to know how much I would like for the card. I have no answer, no idea. Ebay will tell me how much a Pro Graded NM/MT 1952T MM is worth. Interestingly, to this day, no party has come forward and said with all certainty, "I KNOW what was done to that card...here's the procedures that were performed_____".
No disrespect to you whatsoever Scott. Just using your sensible post as a take-off point.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

Of course you are getting interest in this card!! ...from people who have no idea what they are buying.

So you feel it's okay to screw the unknowledgeable rather than educate them? This auction of yours goes directly against what 99% of the people on this board stand for - honesty and educating the novice collector.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

....MOST of my auctions of items worth in excess of $1000 being Private Auctions, comics AND cards. Check the Search engine on Ebay: 19 auctions in July, SIXTEEN of them are Private, EIGHTEEN of which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with baseball cards. I also remember that auctions of Lipset, Mastro, Manning, Teletrade, Rotman, etc. etc., are ALL Private.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..into my PC? Have you SEEN the names on the emails I've received of parties interested in PURCHASING the card outright? You're absolutely SURE that they're ALL novice collectors? Would you care to make a wager?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...that looks like alteration, and to THIS day, NOBODY has positively identified exactly WHAT and WHERE the alteration is. Can you? How can I describe something I know nothing about? Or is all you have to go on speculation and here-say? HEL-LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO??!! It's a Pro-graded card. If it were a PSA card, the bidding would already be in excess of $35,000! The bid stands at $5000+. What should I include in the description? It's altered? Where is it altered? I'll have to answer, "Gee, I dunno', duhhhhhhhh?". Then HOW do I KNOW it's altered will be the next question, "Errrr..._____ said that it was, and _____ told ______ who told ______ who overheard _____ telling ______ that it was altered, but nobody knows where, what, how, and why". Wouldn't THAT make a nice accurate description?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

I bet everyone on this board has been cheated by an unscupulous dealer at least once, and probably more than they would like to admit. I don't think anyone has a problem with the card being sold, just with the information that's not being provided. I bought a large collection of 1960's paper machie nodders a few years ago for a little over 14,000. A few months later I was informed by a friend that about half of them had been expertly restored, which of course destroys there value. I have sold all of these nodders for about a tenth of what I paid, because I included a description of the restoration.
52 Mantle cards , even trimmed are rare and desirable items. I think you might still recoup alot of your investment by listing the item as trimmed.
I don't know you Dr Koos,but I would think the money isn't as important as your integrity.
BRIAN

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

Please address the question: why are you not giving your potential buyers, through your ebay description, the benefit of you knowledge about this card?


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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

...then your description is perfectly fine.

So what do you think? ...or what DID you think?

I thought I remembered you posting a rant about getting hosed on a PRO-graded '52 Mantle? Don't tell me you bought TWO of them, and one is good and the other is crap!?!

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Mike Williams

The infamous PRO '52 Topps Mantle has been bantered around on this board for a while now. Last we left it, it was won in a previous Mastro auction as altered (correct me if I'm wrong)....slabbed by PRO....the won by the current seller via eBay. With all that's been written about (and seemingly agreed to/proved) by the current seller, its very surprising to me NONE of it's history was revealed in the description. Imagine what the new buyer will feel when he/she realizes what they spent good money on. Probably the same feeling the current seller had when he "learned" the real story of this card....shame!

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

....it FILLS the holder. It has FACTORY edges (serrations). It's been SIZED next to at least 10 1952T high numbers in a range of grades, and at least 1 other 1952T Mantle...AND IS AMONG THE LARGER EXAMPLES of any batch I hold it up to. The card is NOT trimmed. It is NOT stretched and trimmed as the lines of the portraiture are the SAME SIZE IDENTICAL TO ANOTHER COMPARISON CONTROL MANTLE from a different source. It sizes EXACTLY what all the guides SAY it should PLUS a 64th inch or so on the left to right aspect (due to the fuzz coming off the serrations)AND across ANY region of the card and I am realizing those dimensions by measuring to the INSIDE of the black lines on the ruler to leave nothing to chance! If placed randomly in a small pile of 52Topps high numbers, it would be one of the LARGER examples present. If something is done to that card, TRIMMING most certainly plays no part in it.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

....WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THAT CARD, guarantee me your findings, and I will add it to the description immediately.

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Posted By: Elliot

Why not just add to the listing that this card was sold by Mastronet as "altered". That's exactly how Mastronet did it, without detailing the alteration. I think most people would find that acceptable AND a necessary addition to your auction.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

...why don't you send the card to a REAL grading company (SGC,PSA,etc.)? If it hasn't been trimmed, then you will have a slabbed card worth a lot of money.

I don't expect a response to this question, but it begs to be asked.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Brueso

Let's take a walk down Memory Lane to last May and June as you put yourself on a pedestal for not foisting what you called the "worthless" Mantle on someone else in the "VonDole Mosser and Company w/trimmed PRO cards" thread. I wonder if the ones that have contacted you privately about buying the card and that are bidding on e-bay would like to know what you thought about it only 1-2 months ago?:

"As far as I know, I still own BOTH worthless cards that I bought from this outfit. A 1952T Mantle "Pro" 8 ('Pro-graded' being a Politically correct synonym for restored)that I'm out $12,500 on PLUS a lovely E90-1 Jackson in "Pro" 7 that I shelled out $8,900 for. That's $21,400 worth of wall-paper that I never tried foisting off or bouncing back to anyone else in the hobby. You make an off-the-cuff mindless statement about morals like some contemptuous, idiotic, jack-ass, without putting your mind in gear before engaging your fingers. Would YOU sit with $21,400 tied up in two cards that you found out were GARBAGE after you paid CASH for them, for 2 years, and NEVER once try to foist them on some unsuspecting Ebayer? Yeah, I'll just BET you would! MORALS?? Do you own a dictionary? It would be safe to say that EVERY Pro-graded card, at least those of pre-1960 vintage, can be assumed to be restored. From the scans of every Pro-graded card I've ever seen on Ebay, I can honestly say that I've never seen one Vintage card that DIDN'T look unaltered in some way. If you own a Pro-graded card, get it graded by SGC, PSA, or BGS for the straight scoop. You're only in denial if you don't regardless of whether it's a $100 or $12,500 card. And as far as unprovoked, uncalled for personal attacks from out of nowhere, email me at Comickeys@aol.com for directions and you can make them in person, the way they SHOULD be made before the advent of this, "I'm hiding behind my monitor from over 1000 miles away so I feel omnipotently empowered to say anything I please, right or wrong" Bologna."

"The ironic thing about the whole transaction is that I didn't make a penny. The card was taken on consignment. Tell me again about what a thief I am and what boulders I can find to hide under. It's actually very amusing in a childish satirical manner for you to be inferring that. Morals!! Please..you're killing me! Buy $21,401 worth of valueless Pro graded cards ($1.00 more than what I spent on them), and after finding out that they're garbage and the seller won't take them back, keep them, suffer from your own ignorance in silence. Resist the urges to not only bounce the cards on another unsuspecting dolt (I had just started collecting and didn't realize that Pro = S**T) but to also go back to the Sellers and puree' them with your bare hands. THEN, YOU'LL be the Champion guppy of Pro-Graded cards and I'll be more than willing to listen to your 50 minute lecture on "Morals"."

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Posted By: Mike Williams

Here's what I can tell you will some certainty....the card was deemed altered by Mastro. You apparently wanted a '52 Mantle, hence your purchase. You bought a seemingly stunning card, in a PRO holder. PRO (even then) was very suspect....why would anyone how holds a Nm/Mt '52 Topps Mantle have it graded by PRO???? You carried on in numerous posts (rightfully so) regarding your disappointment with the "facts" surrounding the card, and if I'm not mistaken, the mention of legal action was also mentioned. You are now telling us that the card is B I G....as compared to other '52 Topps cards. I don't doubt what you're saying but I'm confused why your new found respect for the card hasn't warranted a submission to a more reliable grading company. This way, you get your '52 Mantle....and it's in a holder you can live with. The issue isn't you selling the card, the issue is your perceived flip-flop and non-disclosure.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...the entire purpose of the auction, to determine what the present market value of a 1952T Pro Graded NM/MT Mantle is worth in July, 2002...a little over 2 years since its purchase. No one has stopped to ask why the card has been submitted on Ebay. No one has noticed a reserve. All the fingerpointers and Holy-Rollers are just piling out of the woodwork like Zombies in "Night of the Living Dead" to stick their two cents in and remind me of what good "friends" I have in this hobby who in MY opinion are MUD and still WILL be even AFTER the auction is over and they want to make "half-hearted" apologies once ALL the facts are presented. I can hold my tongue for 5 more day + 10 hours. Some of you can't hold you tongues for more than 5 seconds to even stop and think, and I understand it..believe me.
Vorthian barks and all the hyaneas (not everybody) burst into YOUR HOUSE to knock down and feed on the carcass of the assigned prey. That's USUALLY how these hate/blame/finger pointing posts go, but I'm not that easy to knock down and I'm not defending myself needlessly for the next 5days + 10 hours. Like they said in the Superman episode, "No comment until the time limit is up". Sayonara, it's been enlightening.
(Once again, absolutely not directed at you Elliot in any way, just using your post as a take-off point)

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

Shouldn't BCD be popping in here at some point for the Defense? ...or is he the Bailiff?

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scott
Forget balif, I think BCD should be the judge and executioner. That should scare everyone into going straight. later brian

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Posted By: uniship

Doctor, how can your reconcile your own words from a couple of months ago with this auction? Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears indefensible.

You say you're just trying to get the current market value - and of course that is totally within your right - but your description in the auction is deceiving when you consider what you yourself wrote only 2 months ago.

It would be like trying to get the market value for a reprint Honus Wagner but describing it as totally legit. How is this any different?