What are the toughest T205s and T207s?

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Posted By: Andy Cook

What in everyone's opinion are the toughest T205s and T207s to find? Maybe the top ten (setting aside the T207s of Irving Lewis and Lowdermilk). Are they variations or regular issue cards?

Thanks,
Andy

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

The Bugs Raymond is also difficult to find. Though others consider Ed Walsh a tough card, I've seen a few available from dealers and in auctions other than ebay.

"Teach a kid how to be a good loser and that's what he'll grow up to be" - Scott G's Dad

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Posted By: Brian H

The toughest t205 is easily the no stats variation of Hoblitzell. The other cards that are very difficult include the aforementioned Joss, the hatless variations of Wallace, Moran (the variation with a stray line), Graham & Shean (the versions with the Cubs), Collins and Bresnahan (mouth open variations), Kirby White, George Suggs, Bill Dahlen and "Bugs" Raymond.

Don't know the T207s as well but I would think the more difficult ones include "Smokey" Joe Wood and George (Buck) Weaver. These two also have greater demand because of the subjects not just the scarcity for the set collectors.

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Posted By: TBob

I would hesitate to rank them but the 10 toughest T207s to me (after spending 15 years off and on chasing them) are:

Adams, Kuhn, Tyler, Ragan, Rassmussen, Sweeney, Donlin, Ward Miller, Hoff and Lange. That includes Lowdermilk and I. Lewis because they appear more frequently than the above 10, primarily because of their value, and Weaver because of his immense popularity appears far more frequently although it is one of the tougher cards with only the tough Red Cross, Red Cycle, Anon and Broadleaf backs.
Of the commons, there are some real killers in there, which include Wood (some may say this is not a common but it was issued with a Recruit back and only his popularity increases his value), Kling, Ellis, and Higgins.

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Posted By: TBob

try and find a Rowman in EXMT or better. Almost impossible. Their is one more always overlooked scarcity in the set which wasn't mentioned but until I get an upgrade, I am keeping mum

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

That's pretty wild - I thought we had lots of collectors of these issues on the board.

Anyway, this is a perfect example of a thread, that if replied to by more than 2-3 people, could be "digested" by an editor into something extremely "appropriate" for a board email-distributed newsletter.

Anyone else gonna help, or will you just be reading and learning today? I volunteer to edit the thread for Elliot's newsletter , so I will keep bringing it back to the top of the board until all the lurkers come out of the wood-work.

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Disclaimer
I apologize in advance if the above post has in any way offended anyone other than a specifically identified target. I also apologize in advance if reading the above post has been a waste of time for someone whose time is worth more than mine.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I would offer more info, but I've been out of the hobby way too long and forgotten more inforation than the average collector knows

Jay

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Posted By: Eric

I don't collect this set but talking to people who have collected this issue over the years the following 2 cards come up alot on want lists:

1.) Hoblitzell (no stats)
2.) Bobby Wallace (no cap)

Eric

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

although i dont collect either set really,i have searched for the t207's that tbob mentioned and also looked for a Hoff for myself and i couldnt find any of them either at card shows or through the internet. So the hard to find T207's he mentioned are very difficult in my opinion as i would say most are part of sets and not for sale. I have found 3 people who told me they had Hoff's but none were for sale,including one guy who had one for just display at a show("hoff tease" i call him)....90% of that set should be easy to find,looking through stacks of them alot of the names popped up alot,and bidding on a few lower grade commons noticed the price of them was very low

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

I think i know what the t205 that tbob wont mention till he gets the upgrade is, and unless he bribes me not to tell anyone i will post it tomorrow.You have 24 hours Tbob(insert evil laugh here)

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Posted By: Jonathan Perry

Here you go this is my opinion on some of the tougher T205s
Starting at the Top
Hoblitzell no stats
a Drum Back
Moran stray line of type
Hoblitzell spelled incorrectly
Joss
Hindu back
Wallace with out cap
Eddie Collins Mouth open
AP Liefield with AP on the front
Chase only left ear showing
Bresnahan Mouth open
Dolly Gray with stats
Shean and Graham Cubs variation
Minor leaguers
with Collins and Dunn being some of the more difficult and more difficult.
That is about how I would see the top 10-15 in order of difficulty

if anyone has any of these cards I would be willing to buy or trade for them

Jon

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Posted By: Joshua

Hi all...Andy knows I have done a lot of research on this set...the toughest T-205s in my opinion are the following:

Hoblitzell no stats
Wallace no cap, one line of 1910 stats
Gray w/ stats
Moran w/ stray line

Those four are truly difficult. I have collected info from ebay and other large auctions of the past few years, mostly about back toughness but have seen thousands of T-205s.

The Hoblitzell spelled incorrectly is about as tough as the Joss. These two cards are often seen in auctions on ebay. In fact there have been two Joss's on ebay in the last year. The Suggs, Graham and Shean variations, Raymond, and Wagner are all tough.

When it comes to backs...I have seen 2 Drums on ebay in 5 years (same card). In fact, I would love to add a Drum back if anybody has one, I have a hindu to trade. Drum is toughest, Hindu next, Broadleaf (both colors are about he same). Andy has seen my research on this and expect another report on t-205 backs this summer.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

i need a few t205's and t207's if any of you have them.

t205's dahlen, grant, "a" leifield and wallace no cap 1 line of stats.

t207's bauman & donlin.

any grade above vg will buy or trade.

as to toughest, i feel the t205 collins mouth open is one of the hardest to find in decent grade.
toughest t207's are any of the scarce commons. they are so scarce that every one needs different ones, not just the same guys, due to uneven survival and limited production.

scott

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Posted By: scott brockelman

bob, your right i did the t207's by memory i need bauman & downey! not donlin. anybody got either one?

scott

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Posted By: Anonymous

considering how tough some of the cards are, I find it absolutely amazing that Burdick or anyone else in the 50s was able to compile a complete list of the set. And to top it off, he did a pretty job of noting variations too.

Jay

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

Tbob-

I ended up with one of the two T-205 Joss's sold in the past year on e-bay. The other Joss was sold by a local (Cleveland area) dealer and was in worse shape than the one I won. Joss T-205s are even darn near impossible to find here (in the Cleveland area). I know of a local auctioneer who collects vintage Cleveland cards (he's been collecting them for over 25 years)that has told me he has never owned a T-205 Joss or had one of them come into his shop. I paid about $275 for my Joss and the seller claimed it was rejected by PSA twice for evidence of trimming. The card measures OK - I think it was cut funny since none of the corners on it are sharp. Hope this info helps. There is a PSA 5 floating around on this board for sale for $1350 that is probably worth the asking price.

Eric

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Posted By: TBob

Scott what happened to the T207 Donlin I traded you a year or so ago for the Moore with the Red Cycle back? I haven't seen a single Donlin since then and wouldn't you know it, it's one of the 8 I need. On the other hand, I have seen 3 Moores

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Posted By: TBob

Joshua- I agree almost completely with your above post but I must disagree with you about the "one L" Hoblitzell. I have owned 4 of them, as I am always trying to upgrade my collection. On the other hand, I was damn lucky to find a G/VG Joss and still have it after all these years because the only 3 I have seen for sale during the last couple of years were all around EXT and all were fetching around $800-1000. I believe Doug Allen of Mastro bought one, don't know where the others ended up.

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Don't forget, the "old timer" Burdick actual put out the first catalog (without checklists) in the US in 1939. That's about 25-30 years after these cards were made, and a time when most of the people who originally collected them were still alive. In that pre-TV era collectibles like trading cards were much more likely to be kept by adults... they hadn't become the kid's playthings of the 1950's through 1970's yet.

Jay does make a valid point, though. There were very few "serious" collectors out there who were actively buying and selling collections, and there wasn't all that much communicaion between hobbyists - almost exclusively by letter. However, that also means that old timers were more likely to be able to pick up large numbers of collections - there wasn't much in the way of competition.

Jeff

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

If I'm going to organize this into an article, mystery cards will probably only confuse people. Thanks!

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Disclaimer
I apologize for the previous disclaimer, but that is in no way an admission of guilt or intention to pay reparations for mental damages that may have been suffered while reading my disclaimers.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

Thanks! Please also check the thread about "vintage books" - I will edit it as well. Thanks

NOTE: Once I've put something together and run it by Elliot, we will distribute to a board member list

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Posted By: James Walker, Jr.

But what about the T207(?) Red Cross back?

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

...that discusses backs rather than individual players.

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historically significant fact
Ed Reulbach once threw both ends of a double-header, winning both with shutouts, and pitching the entire games