VonDole~Mosser and company w/trimmed PRO cards

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Brian

I've been watching these guys as well as PSA-CARD for quite sometime, I beleive they must be working together or in fact are the same people. They are the only ones who sell large numbers of Pro(trimmed) cards on ebay every week and are both from NY. They also both include a real Psa graded card to legitimize there listing and increase the number of people who view it. I used to warn there bidders, but too many shill bidders and private auctions to be effective, now I only warn my past customers. There are others, but these guys are the worst. later brian

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Posted By: Our old Friends are at it again 

Look at this Clemente! I am bad but this is just plain Evil :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1830210065

It's trimmed in three places! These guys need the New York DA to step in.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

I live close to you in Los Gatos! : )

5-4 Giants!

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I confess to being fairly ignorant about spotting trimmed cards; however, I wonder to what extent is PRO grading what it knows to be trimmed cards? Look at the posted auction. Next to Roberto is a '64 Topps standup that was graded at roughly the same time as the Clemente (according to the serial numbers). As we know, Standups measure the same as Topps regular issue-21/2 x 31/2. So why is PRO slabbing the Standup in a larger framed holder than the Clemente? Why aren't the holders the same size? Would a true 21/2 by 31/2 card even fit in the Clemente holder--I think not. So isn't PRO knowingly grading cards that are short?

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Posted By: David

I am not an avid trading card collector and don't follow the grading card companies as closely as others on this board. Having said that, from my observation so many cards in PRO holders are SO small that either PRO is aware the cards are trimmed cards or they are incompant to the extreme.

Aout a year and a half ago, this issue was brought up to me, so for my newsletter I looked into it (being the fine investigative reporter that I am). In particular, I looked at a series of PRO graded 1939 Play Ball cards, comparing them to a spate of other-graded and non graded cards. The Play Balls were so short (not talking factory variations here), that it was a joke. I contacted PRO for their side of the story, and even provided images of Play Balls, and received no response.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

also known as "Kardz-r-us" "Bedrock"

and of course but not limited to:


PRO GRADING COMPANY***

They are in fact PRO.....

they were the guys who sold Dr. Koos a bogus altered PRO graded 52 Mantle they purchased as altered from a mastro auction three years ago.....the owner got on the other chat board two years ago but was quickly shooooeeed off by some on here and it only gets uglier from there. PRO,selling their own stuff is got to be DA material..........it's fraud in the form of conceilment I believe.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

All Brians must think alike, I have always beleived these guys were a group and were slabbing there own cards in Pro holders. We could use a few stories in beckett, tuff stuff, and SCD to out these guys. They don't advertise grading services anymore anyway, maybe Adam could write a story for the next VCBC, I would be happy to help. thanks brian

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Posted By: warshawlaw

And I will take it on. I will need actual card scans and explanations of what is wrong including measurements. I will also need data re any transactions with these dealers.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Adam

I have some scans of pro t206's which are trimmed, but luckily I have never bought anything from these crooks.
Before they used the private auction system, I was the high bidder on a Bastian SLer Pro 8 until someone emailed to warn me of the trimming. I canceled my bid and have watched them ever since. I have heard from several parties that they are under investigation by the ny distict attorney, but that maybe just talk.

I'm sure someone on the board has been taken by these guys. I will send some emails to some other ebayers and see what i can come up with.
thanks brian

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Posted By: Tim

Richard Koos (comic-keys) has the same morals as PRO!

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Take a look at my responses under the heading
The Trimmed/Altered E90-1 Mathewson PRO-Graded Card
that has been talked about here.
I took a hit from one guy for writing what I wrote, but everything I wrote was true. I think he had a personal axe to grind with me, though, since I was a cop here in Seattle, he appears to live here in Seattle, and he brings up some of my cop stuff in his response. Pretty weird...

Anyway, interesting PRO Grading info...

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Posted By: Dr.Richard Koos

As far as I know, I still own BOTH worthless cards that I bought from this outfit. A 1952T Mantle "Pro" 8 ('Pro-graded' being a Politically correct synonym for restored)that I'm out $12,500 on PLUS a lovely E90-1 Jackson in "Pro" 7 that I shelled out $8,900 for. That's $21,400 worth of wall-paper that I never tried foisting off or bouncing back to anyone else in the hobby. You make an off-the-cuff mindless statement about morals like some contemptuous, idiotic, jack-ass, without putting your mind in gear before engaging your fingers. Would YOU sit with $21,400 tied up in two cards that you found out were GARBAGE after you paid CASH for them, for 2 years, and NEVER once try to foist them on some unsuspecting Ebayer? Yeah, I'll just BET you would! MORALS?? Do you own a dictionary?
It would be safe to say that EVERY Pro-graded card, at least those of pre-1960 vintage, can be assumed to be restored. From the scans of every Pro-graded card I've ever seen on Ebay, I can honestly say that I've never seen one Vintage card that DIDN'T look unaltered in some way. If you own a Pro-graded card, get it graded by SGC, PSA, or BGS for the straight scoop. You're only in denial if you don't regardless of whether it's a $100 or $12,500 card. And as far as unprovoked, uncalled for personal attacks from out of nowhere, email me at Comickeys@aol.com for directions and you can make them in person, the way they SHOULD be made before the advent of this, "I'm hiding behind my monitor from over 1000 miles away so I feel omnipotently empowered to say anything I please, right or wrong" Bologna.

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Posted By: Tim

Well, look who has decided to come out from under what he has been hiding under. And it took an insensitive comment on my behalf to do so.

Can you answer me why you will not answer any of my e-mails to resolve the eBay transaction going back to last December?

I still have not received the card I purchased from you and you know why. You sent the card to the wrong address. I used paypal to pay for the card, $168.50 + $6.50 for shipping/insurance for a total of $175.00. The card in question is a 1916 Tango Eggs Bob Bescher PSA 8 (OC). My address with paypal was verified and correct and I even e-mailed you my address and you still sent it to the wrong place. I have asked for a refund and you will not return my e-mails. Your communication has been lacking. I have been extremely patient through this time and could have left negative feedback. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and all you did was stall for time until the 90 day period passed to cover your own #ss!

Richard...send me my card or my money back please!

Tim

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

....

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Posted By: Tim

Below you will find the details of the PAYPAL transaction (unaltered!). My PAYPAL address IS verified IN OHIO to which the card WAS NOT sent!

See BcD...I can cut and paste.

Transaction Details

Auction Payment Sent (ID #7JN24673DV9916603)

Name: Richard Koos (The recipient of this payment is Verified)
Email: cityopus@email.msn.com

Amount: $-175.00

Winning Bid: $168.50
Shipping: $0.00
Insurance: $6.50
Item Number: 1046547647
Auction Site: eBay
Your Auction User ID: t_sedlock
Auction Close Date: 12/16/01
Item URL:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1046547647&ed=1008564027

Auction Title: 1916 Tango Eggs Bescher PSA 8 (OC)

Date: Dec 17, 2001
Time: 08:19:14
Status: Completed


Shipping Address
(Status: Confirmed)
725 Woodspring Court
Beavercreek, OH 45430
USA

Funding Type: Credit Card
Funding Source: $175.00 - MasterCard Credit Card XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-0433

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Posted By: Tim

By the way, I would love to see some of those e-mails with unalterable headers! My mailing address is EXACTLY the same as my VERIFIED PAYPAL address.

If you remember, we did business earlier last summer and at that time I was living in Oklahoma City. Feel free to call Prairie Springs Apartments at 405-722-2727 to verify my October MOVE OUT date back to OHIO! Address was:

9777 North Council Road, Apt. 1123
Oklahoma City, OK 73162

Speaking of one of those unaltered e-mails I remember you saying that you still had my Oklahoma address in your address book and that is likely why you sent the card to the wrong address whether the GOOD doctor can admit to that or not.

At this point I HAVE to accuse you of lying when you say that you sent me a copy of the post office receipt. Funny how that along with the card has not arrived in the mail either. Please feel free to resend to me at the correct address in OHIO.

I DID NOT wait two months to write you saying the card did not show up. It was January and since the first time I did business with you it took 3 weeks for the card to arrive, I just thought you were being your usual prompt self!

I do not understand why I would say to send it to Oklahoma where I haven't been for two months. And again with this magical receipt saying it has been signed for.

If you want to start a new thread about how you are king of being ripped off by PRO go ahead! Many others will follow. Although, not 5 figures as yourself, they have taken me for 4 figures! Much like you I had just started collecting again and found out as you that PRO = S**T!.

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Posted By: Dr.Richard Koos

Tim,
What is the story here with you, son? Do you lack the ability to disclose ALL the minutae, the fine print of what ACTUALLY transpired?
In the 'remarks' box provided by PayPal, why did you stipulate to me: "PLEASE DO NOT SEND AS REGISTERED MAIL AS I WILL NOT BE AROUND TO SIGN FOR IT"? What does that mean Ted? Did you just write that statement, permanently part of that Ebay transaction page FOREVER (you insinuate that I can change headers..can I hack my way into PayPal's computer and alter entries?) for no reason? Just to be coy? If you weren't going to be around to sign for it, why didn't you do what any other person on the planet expecting auction winnings in the mail would have done if they were going to be in parts unknown, weight unknown, for an indefinite period? Wouldn't it have been prudent to simply stop at your post office before departing and ask them to HOLD your mail for you? Especially parcels of value that MUST be signed for.
As for your argument of Oklahoma vs. Ohio addresses, the Post office has these little "change of address" kits that they supply FREE OF CHARGE. Did you ever fill one of these out?
How unfortunate that you have the unmitigated balls to state, (in the most meeley-mouthed impersonation I can effect) "The first time I did business with you it took THREE weeks for the card to arrive. I thought you were just being your usual prompt self". THIS is what I HATE about the present day technology of emails. That a person can misconstrue and warp facts so cavalierly to a number of readers that may actually believe someone's BS. I'll answer this, effecting a voice as if I were speaking to a child:
YES Ted, you're right champ, it took approx. 2 and 1/2 weeks to get the card into your hands from the closing date of the auction, which was several days after THE WORLD TRADE CENTER DISASTER and everyone that won auctions from me for the week surrounding the catastrophe seemed to understand that I would be delayed in packing and wrapping Ebay wins for shipment since for about 2 weeks, I worked 24/7 only stopping to catch an hour of shuteye here and there or 5 minutes to wolf down some food. Yes, "my usual prompt self". But wait a minute Ted, you RECEIVED the card you won the first time!! Can it actually be that you received it because you were actually THERE to sign for it??????
Also, DON'T mislead people into thinking that you were taken by KardsRus/PSA-cards/PSA2/Bedrock/E-Net/VonDole/and GOD only knows how many other components there are to this nest for a larger number than you were. You stated, "I was taken for FOUR figures by them". Once again, a self-serving way to make a statement that is cloaked in deception. Why not just state, "they took me for $1300.00" instead of trying to make it sound as though you were taken for $8,000 or $9,000???
What I'll do is to gather together all the evidence. Every email exchanged between us complete with headers. All the postal slips (2 of them). The pages with the PayPal transactions. Then I'll figure a way to FTP them to an online storage disc and write a post with all the links for all the documents. This will take a while as I have a few things here and there to do in the interim, admittedly not as important as this issue (it took about 6 trips to the PC just to start and finish this post between more pressing matters).

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Posted By: Dr.Richard Koos

Believe me, and you can verify this with Brian C.D., there aren't that many rocks in New York large enough for me to hide under. And it took an idiotic statement, not an insensitive one (do you really fathom me as being weak enough that I can be bothered by an insensitive comment?). Irony and stupidity motivated my response, not "sensitivity".
You speak of a card I didn't send you but like MANY with an axe to grind and not enough arm power to weild it, you were afflicted with "selective amnesia" 1/2 way through the "story" of the missing Tango Egg Bescher. Let's tell the rest of the story, all VERIFIABLE with emails from YOU containing the original unalterable HEADERS!
Your mailing address was different than your PayPal verified address. YOU gave me instructions on where to send it, which is exactly what I did and I have the post office receipt (which I did send you a copy of to prove this fact). At the time I sent you the card, not only were you on vacation (which came to light in one of your emails 2 months AFTER the card didn't show up....why did you WAIT for two months to ask me why the card wasn't sent instead of letting me know something was amiss after 1 or 2 weeks had expired and you still hadn't received it?), but you MOVED. I've got an email with you telling me to send it here, then another telling me I should have sent it there, and that you LIVED in Oklahoma but now live in Ohio but were on vacation. Why didn't you tell me to suspend delivery/shipment of the card until you decided exactly where you were going to be with some certainty? The PO doesn't offer Express or Priority Gypsy service. You give me and address (you did), I give THEM the address (I did..you HAVE the receipt scan), and they confirmed delivery. I followed YOUR instructions for delivery and the PO confirmed delivery.
The ironic thing about the whole transaction is that I didn't make a penny. The card was taken on consignment. Tell me again about what a thief I am and what boulders I can find to hide under. It's actually very amusing in a childish satirical manner for you to be inferring that. Morals!! Please..you're killing me! Buy $21,401 worth of valueless Pro graded cards ($1.00 more than what I spent on them), and after finding out that they're garbage and the seller won't take them back, keep them, suffer from your own ignorance in silence. Resist the urges to not only bounce the cards on another unsuspecting dolt (I had just started collecting and didn't realize that Pro = S**T) but to also go back to the Sellers and puree' them with your bare hands. THEN, YOU'LL be the Champion guppy of Pro-Graded cards and I'll be more than willing to listen to your 50 minute lecture on "Morals".

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Posted By: Tim

For the record my name is TIM and it is a name you WILL remember! And also for the record, I am NOT your son. As for the 'do not send registered', it was just a preference, but I still asked that it still be insured. That is all there is to it. What I cut and paste was not altered! Since you claim to have the receipt from the Post Office, who did sign for the package? I am curious. I am obviously making a big fuss for some reason for someone who has received the card and signed for it, huh?

Also, for the record...I was out of the country working in Argentina from December 4th through (on vacation as you put it) the end of this past March. I bought in the neighborhood of 20 items through that time on eBay using paypal/credit card and for some odd reason your package was the only one that was not waiting for me when I returned. And I had been in contact with you since January as to its whereabouts! There was someone at the residence to receive packages! And I DID leave a forwarding address in Oklahoma in October before I departed.

As for this string you typed...(sorry BcD):

<As for your argument of Oklahoma vs. Ohio addresses, the Post office has these little "change of address" kits that they supply FREE OF CHARGE. Did you ever fill one of these out?>

Are YOU admitting guilt that you did send MY package to the WRONG address?

Excuse me if I do not shed a tear when you state you worked 24/7 after the bombing of the Twin Towers to get the first card to me.

If you were not such a fraud, explain to everyone on the board why you hide the bidders identities in your auctions!

As for you calling me a child, I am anything but. I have a Master's Degree in a accredited science and am Chief of the Department I am resposible for within my company.

The card I won from our first transaction together was SENT to the CORRECT address which is probably why I DID receive it. You took note of the address from the first transaction and pasted it on the envelope from the second transaction instead of taking the time to get it right!

Whether the sum I was ripped off from those PRO dealers was $1300 or more, 4 figures is 4 figures. Point made, is that I too was taken by them, a FACT! There is no intent on my part for misconception or meant to mislead anyone. So, stop changing the subject at hand.

When you say that you will gather all of the evidence, is that the evidence as you see it or the truth???

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Posted By: Dr.Richard Koos

Rise to the occassion! You rattle very easily when presented with the correct elaboration on the half-facts you establish.
Explain to me how it is possible to send a parcel with insurance (as I did), through the Post Office, and request of them that a signature is unnecessary? How do you proceed in that case, ask them to just throw it off the truck in your general direction and hope for the best? Registered, insured, whatever...REQUIRES that a signature be obtained when delivery is made and THAT is the only way I would send a parcel ANYWAY.
I'm a FRAUD, because bidders identities are Private??? Is Mastro a fraud as well in your book? Lipset? Lelands? Heritage?..or any of the other 50 notable Professional Online auction companies that make bidders and winners names PRIVATE? Why does that bother you, son? It didn't bother you when you bid and won two of my auctions? NOW it bothers you because you can't get into my bidders and winners identities and make a total pain in the ass of yourself with whichever of them you feel will lend an ear to your nonsensical drivel. This is EXACTLY what I meant when I referred to "empowered omnipotence because of being able to lash out unprovokedly and without reason due to DISTANCE". It evokes the "keyboard Warrior" in some, empowering them to say things to people on message boards that they would NEVER say face to face. Like calling folks a FRAUD simply because they opt to use Private feedback, which in this case serves to eliminate bidder aggravation from unsolicited emails. It's an EBAY OPTION that anyone may utilize if they see fit and to call someone a fraud because they use it is childish and irresponsible.
And here's the most ironic fact of all, Chief....the card was on consignment. Auctioned for one of my good friends whos' scanner went down and couldn't post a decent auction with clear jpegs. because of it. You KNOW this already. You've TALKED to the person I extended the favor to. HE was paid EXACTLY what the card was auctioned for minus the Ebay listing and final value % fees! That's right Chief, I made a whopping $0.00 on the sale of this card to you, and I have no fetish for Tango Egg cards. I have absolutely NOTHING, NO THING to gain by keeping the card from you that was sent and according to the Post office, delivered and SIGNED for. Ask the consignor. You KNOW his email address. Ask HIM if this is true. THEN, ask his opinion on YOUR theorey that I NEED to steal $170 from you! I have buyers on items that regularly send me 100 times + that amount and NEVER have a problem receiving merchandise from me. WOW!!...there ya' go Chief..let's ask right here in this thread, if there's anyone else out there that won or sent money for merchandise and I STIFFED them. OK....ANYONE there that bought something that I didn't send or ignored? Hmmmm...just as I suspected...Nobody. I guess I just centered all my demonic fraudulence on YOUR $170.00 purchase, even though $170.00 represents the bottom-most level of auction values that I will handle.
And YOU know as well as I do that when you say 4 figures, the automatic connotation most will think of is an average $5,000 or so (about the halfway point between 3 figures and five figures). SAY $1300.00 since THAT is the figure. THAT'S only $301.00 into the FOUR figure range. Don't be intentionally deceptive and try to make people think that it's worse than it is. It's very telling when you do that and indicative of the way you are relating the facts of this entire transaction to folks, who by this time, probably don't give a damn, although you seem to think they should stop their lives and "throw in" with you. THAT'S why there's private emails and THAT'S why you RATTLE so easily.