Just How Good Do Us Vintage Fans Think Barry Bonds Is???

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Posted By: Brian H 

This is an interesting site I stumbled across that attempts to rate baseball greats al la "Survivor". The players do not vote each other off (otherwise Ty Cobb would have been among the first to go). Rather, some SABRE experts do the voting based on "greatness" or something along those lines.
I was amazed to see how highly Barry Bonds is regarded by these historian types.
I would rate him 4th or 5th and I'm told that's generous.
Anyway, check it out:
http://www.concentric.net/~jkubatko/baseballsurvivor/voting.html

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Nice Topic, but it's very difficult to compare players from different era's, it's much easier to identify players who dominated the game during most or all of there career's . When you think of domination names like Ruth, Cobb, Mathewson, Young, Williams, Dimaggio, Mays, and Mantle come to mind not Barry Bonds. While Barry is a gifted hitter, most of his "awesome" power wasn't displayed before he moved into the little league field along the bay. He is an average fielder with limited range, a pathetic arm and one of the worst attitudes since Albert Belle. Atleast Cobb new he was a jerk, Barry still thinks he's a good guy, like his uncle "Mr Personality" Willie Mays, THE RUDEST AUTOGRAPH SIGNER OF ALL TIME.
forgive my rambling , but Barry and Willie put me over the edge. be well brian

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Have to agree with Brian...

Bonds is a good hitter, an average fielder and a complete a$$hole.

My 500 Hr signed baseball will always lack Bonds autograph, because he doesn't want to sign this kind of material. ???

Mays and Ted Williams were the best in my opinion.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hey Jamie
I'm also a big fan of Williams, the best pure hitter for average&power that ever lived. Fantastic numbers for a guy who lost 5 years defending his country, can you see Barry in the military? I think the word Court Martial would come to mind.
later brian

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I'm no Barry Bonds supporter; I think the guy is an *******. However, give the devil his due. He was a great left fielder, not just a good one. He does not play in a ball park that gives up alot of homers like Colorado and Arizona. In fact, if I am not mistaken Pac Bell is in the bottom half of homers allowed among major league stadiums. Finally, I don't think the beloved Mark McGwire is an easy signature to get on a 500 homer baseball either. Bonds had one of the greatest seasons ever last year and, if teams would pitch to him, could probably repeat it this year.

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Posted By: Cy

OK, let's get real with Barry Bonds. You can hate him for whatever reason you want. But if you are objective, then he ranks right up there with the greatest ball players of all-time.

Brian Weisner tried to point out why Bonds isn't a great player. He stated that Bonds "is an average fielder with limited range, (and) a pathetic arm." That limited range and pathetic arm earned him EIGHT golden glove awards.

Brian stated that "most of his "awesome" power wasn't displayed before he moved into the little league field along the bay." I don't know exactly when SF moved into their new stadium. I'm guessing 3-4 years ago. So subtract Bond's last three years worth of home runs and he still has 411 in Candlestick Park, battling those terrible winds. Personally, I'd be ashamed to admit to hitting only 411 home runs.

Bonds also has four MVP awards. And that does not include the two years he was robbed because the media didn't like him. In 1991, there was no way that Terry Pendleton was a better player than Bonds. Same thing in 2000 when the writers gave it to Jeff Kent. Both picks were absurd. So, in my mind, he should have had SIX MVP's. Mantle had three. Berra had three. Musial had three. If you don't agree with my assertion that he should have won six, he still has FOUR MVP's, and going strong.

Now let's get to last season. It was simply the best season ever. Period. End of discussion. Try to find a better year. I find that Total Baseball's Total Average to be a great indication of how good a season a player has (total bases divided by total outs produced). Bonds easily outdistanced every player ever in that category. He had 73 Home Runs in 476 At Bats with 177 walks! That is unreal. That is one home run per 6.5 at bats, one home run every 2.1 games, with at least one walk per game. He had a .515 on base average (Cobb's best was .486) with an .863 slugging average (best of all-time). In 1921 and 1927, Babe Ruth averaged a mere one home run every 9 at bats.

Brian also pointed out that Bonds doesn't dominate the game like some of the vintage collectors' heroes. If he doesn't dominate the game, why has he been intentionally walked with the bases loaded? If that isn't an indication that he is dominant, I don't know what is.

In a nutshell, Bonds is easily the best player since 1970. And any time that a player is considered this great over a thirty year period should easily be considered right up there with the best players of all time. I know I am making this claim but I am not alone in this thought.

I know it's easy to point out "facts" that make this era inferior to the golden age of baseball. But there are many "facts" that point to the golden age being overrated. For example, how many more hits would have George Brett had in his .390 season if the players of his time had to use gloves of the 1900's? Or better yet, how many less hits would have Cobb had if the players back then had the modern glove. I would also like to see the stats on the batting averages of the early ballplayers in the late innings. I bet they padded their stats late in the ball game when pitchers' arms were tired but weren't replaced by a relief pitcher. The pitching of today is always a question, too. But remember, prior to 1946 blacks weren't allowed to play. With the addition of minority players, I bet there the ratio of good to poor pitchers is about the same as it was whenever. There were a lot of poor pitchers per good pitchers in every era of baseball.

Putting this all together, there are "facts" about any era that will magnify the accolades and will diminish them. But if a player, like Bonds, rises above his peers of his era, then he deserves the recognition due to him. If you think he is arrogant, fine. Don't buy his autograph or his Fleer Rookie card. But give him his due. He is as good as it gets in baseball and realize that you are lucky enough to see him in his prime. Enjoy watching him. He is fun to watch. I enjoy watching him and I am still pissed off that he left my Pittsburgh Pirates years ago.

Whew, sorry guys. I just got on a roll. I didn't mean to write so much. But it was fun doing it..

Thanks for reading it.

Cy

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Posted By: runscott

It's very difficult to say nice things about people you don't like - that's just human nature.

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Posted By: fkw

The "little league field by the bay" is obvious a remark from someone who knows nothing about the field called Pac Bell Park. It is one of the toughest HR parks in the league. There have been exactly 24 balls hit into SF Bay in last 2.33 years, Bonds has 18...... Felipe Crespo (former Giant now in Japan) has 2, rest of Giants and opponets combine for a total of 4!!!!!! Yes 4 players from visiting teams have reached the bay in the air, in over 2.3 years! Pac Bell has the longest right center in baseball at 421 feet and a 20 foot wall with wind coming in from the bay, and obviously at sea level. Sure the line is short, but the wall is fairly tall, and the fence jets out to about 385 within a couple dozen feet from line. If it was easy to hit a ball in bay they why hasnt any other So called Great Lefty Power Hitter of the NL done it. It is rare for a "Splash Hit",... and will be rarer once Bonds hangs them up.
Bonds has been the best player in the league (both Leagues, non pitcher) since he started. He will be the first and only 500/500 guy. Will reach 700 HRs in 3 years if healthy with new 5 year contract. Was at one time one of the best left fielders, has won numerous Gold Gloves to go with his 4 MVPs (should be 6), and he is in his prime as we speak. His stats hurt as far as career RBIs and Average mainly because of the leadoff hitter role he had with Pittsburgh (still has 10 years of 100+ RBIs). Another measurement of Greatness....... Bonds has held the Career Intentional Walk record for about 4-5 years now, and they just keep piling up. He will walk 190+ times this year again with 50+ HRs and no support from poor Jeff Kent. He's not on Roids, works out religiously, and now is actually one of the nicer fan friendly Giants in person. I see him play 30-40 times a year, and just cant begin to compare him to anyone else of this generation (go back to Mays for the closest). He is, and will be for many years to come, The Greatest All Around Player Ever!! Stolen Bases 36, 32, 17, 32, 52, 43, 39, 29, 29, 31, 40, 37, 28, etc. Home Runs 16, 25, 24, 19, 33, 25, 34, 46, 37, 33, 42, 40, 37, 34, 49, 73, etc. With 8 times over 117 Walks a year. Never struck out more than 100 times since rookie year (17 K's this year {11 looking} with 18 HRs). Not to mention the best ever 2001 (in 476 AB's) of 73 HRs, 177 Walks, and the big .863 Slug!!! One day you "East Coast Bonds Bashers" will wake up!!!

PS. Barry has been my favorite all around player since back in 1982. Back then at Serra High School in San Mateo, he upset me (and other Pitchers) with raw speed (and a bit of cockyness). We all knew him back then as Bobby Bonds' kid..... and he was Great then too!!!! I do know my baseball a bit, am a former 95+ Lefty Pitcher (4th round Jan '85 draft Expos) before blowing out arm (and ruptured right patellar tendon, knee) ended it all way too soon. Stats say I was better than John Wetteland (HS & American Legion teammate) at the time. Those were the fun days, now I slave for the County!! ha ha Frank

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hey Cy
Looks like I struck a nerve! If you write that well all the time you ought to write a book. I will admit that I am biased against today's players, they are bigger, stronger, and in better condition than there predecessors, but play on fields that are smaller. It's amazing how many Stadiums have moved there fences in over the last 25 years, and none have moved them back.
You mention the size of gloves in Cobb's era probably helped his hit totals, well certainly some of Barry's 350ft- 365ft Homeruns at Pac Bell and Candlestick would have been outs before the fences were moved in the early 90's from 397 in right center to 360ft. You also mention the winds at the stick, like Wrigley, sometimes they help and sometimes they hurt, but overall it's probably about even.
Cy, you also mention the weak pitching in the past, which with your name gives you a little credibility, but not totally. The stike zone over the last 10 years has become the wheel house, what happened to the letters to the knees? How would you like to take the mound with a juiced baseball, small strike zone, and short fences because that's what faces the pitchers of today.
Just for the record "I consider most of the Ballparks today to be little league parks"
I also beleive the Gold Glove has become more of a popularity contest than a true award, with a few exceptions such as Andruw Jones, many of the multiple winners are solid on the routine plays, but lack the range and the will to go after the tough catches.
When Barry retires he will have great stats, many awards and a Hall of fame plaque, but in 10 years will people still talk about Bonds as they do the other baseball imortals? I doubt it.
Thanks for a great thread, I've enjoyed the discussion, I only wish I wrote or pitched as well as CY. later brian

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I was a little puzzled not to see Radbourn, until i noticed that Ruth was also missing.

Willie Mays is an OLD MAN. Old men get mean and ornery.
I got his autograph in 1980, and he was sweet as pie.

Mays is number one (but jeez, how does that ball take off every time Bonds touches it!)

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Posted By: runscott

Why would writers who don't like Barry Bonds continually vote him as the winner in a popularity contest?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hey Frank
95+ FOR A LEFTY? If your ball had as much movement as most lefties it must have been tough on the catcher.
About Pacbell, I have the current dimensions as follows: lfline 335ft
lfcent 364ft
center 404ft
rtcenter 375ft
rt line 307ft
Is this correct?

From a Catcher/Thirdbaseman with a bad Rotater Cuff.
later brian

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Brian, I threw a heavy fast ball with movement (2 seemer), a slider, a crappy (flat) curve, and a circle change (not so good either). I did great until I found that college players can hit 95 when they know its coming. I should have worked on the off speed stuff more in High School, but why throw something they can see, when they didnt touch the fastball. Oh well, I wish I had more of a chance, but injuries and bad timing ended my run soon after I was drafted. Had to get a job, pay rent, and life goes on. The thing that makes me feel a little better, is knowing that only about 5% of minor leagures ever make it to the big show, so my chances where low, even if I was a Lefty with control. The funny thing is Wetteland threw nothing but heat back then too (95++), but very wild. He has a 4 seem riser that actually took off last 10 feet. He did learn some good off speed stuff in college, and well had a fairly nice career. Best Hitters I faced were Matt Williams, Greg Jeffries, Ed Sprague Jr., Devon White (hella fast), Greg Vaughn, and Bonds. Williams, Jeffries, and Bonds were the best at High School level! One of my greater American Legion moments was sending a Game winning 440' aluminum bat 3 run HR over the light tower off Matty Williams in the light air of Carson City NV. He jacked one off me the same game. We all knew Matty was going places, as he was going to UNLV the following year (as a shortstop), and was Giants #1 a couple years later. Frank

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Posted By: fkw

Pac Bell is 421 to straight away right center where the 20' brick wall meets the smaller center field fence. It is called triples alley in SF. I go to at least 1 game a week when they are in town, but usually watch the games from the FREE right field cutout cubbyholes (just 15-20 feet behind right fielder). Frank

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Cool story Frank
I played a little ball myself, but not nearly as far as you. I did get to face major leaguers Scott Bankhead and Eric Hanson a couple of times, as well as a 12 yearold in the sw regional who threw 86 mph. The kid was 6-3 225 and also had a curve, how we beat that guy I will never know. If you had only had Hanson's curve, it was absolutely wicked, especially after a 95 mph fastball. I'll be out in San Francisco August 16-18, and would love to catch a game at the bell. Are tickets tough to get? lmk brian

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Posted By: Brian H

As I suggested in my opening post -- I would (at present) put Bonds at 4 or 5. Conceivably if he keeps up what he is up to now and addresses his one meaningful weakness in terms of greatness I could see him getting as high as #2 (#1 is Babe Ruth who I think is unassailable).
To me what holds Barry back is NOT the relative merits of either his current home ballpark or the current callibre of Major Leaguers. I think that he has been at least equally effective on the road and that today's talent pool is far wider than ever. Today the major leagues has players for all over the earth -- we have the latin american stars as well as a few from the far east and no segment of the human population is (at least formally) denied entry into the majors as Blacks and even part Black Latinos (Dihigo et al) were prior to about 1950.*
No, all Barry's resume is lacking is any post-season greatness./2
Accordingly, I rate Barry behind, in order (not including Negro League players as a result of my ignorance): Ruth, Wagner and Johnson and about even with Mays, Cobb and Williams (who also lacks any major post-season achievements).
____________
* I use that date because at least until tht time the select Blacks permitted to play in the "majors" were exceptions not based purely on their abilities but also their preceived ability to withstand racism.
2 Whether or not Barry was/is a jerk is immaterial in evaluating his greatness as a ballplayer. Otherwise I think Cobb probably gets downgraded more than Barry and (at least according to some) so does Ted Williams and maybe even Willie Mays too for his post-career conduct.

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Posted By: Jaime Leiderman

Now we have two pitchers on the board...

Frank with his 95+ mph Fastball & David with his 50- mph "fast"ball and 25 mph curve.

David, still looking to play against your team one day... just wanna feel like Barry Bonds one day!

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

that Ruth and Wagner are the only oners who have not been voted off yet.

That makes me feel better. But what's wrong with 19th century pitchers? And what's so hot about kevin Brown?

Everyone will have a different opinion.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

make more people happy?

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Posted By: W.M.

I think we are quite possibly seeing the greatest baseball player ever in Bonds. If he is "juiced" however and asterisk should be put next to anything he has ever done career wise. If that's the case my favorites for greatest are still Frank Robinson,Henry Aaron, Willie Mays, Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

Too bad you did not go see Doctor Arthur Ting in fremont bro who is the sports othopedic surgeon to the stars! I had him reattach my right arm at the shoulder three times and repair torn ligaments in my left wrist ala 250+ competition Jui-Jitsu matches...........he can fix the knee. He worked and lived with Doctor Jobe, the famed UCLA'"Tommy John" surgeon.( Who also operated on my elbow and shoulder twice!) .......three times I had my knees and shoulder operated on by Doctor Gary Fanton ,who just did our Giants 3-b's ( Rich A's ) elbow in Menlo Park.I'm going for the Guiness Book record for most reattachment surgeries. After twelve I am only seven away.
Incidentally Brian H, notice the combined weight of Barry Bonds & Slammin Sammy in 1988 was 340lbs! Now with gallons of Creatine and Glutamine mixed with Whey protein...those two are a combined 452lbs!!!!

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Posted By: jverri01

And not afraid to admit it.

I honestly think that players have an "obligation" to their fans. I think Bonds falls shy of this by a long-shot.

As for talent - well, difficult to say. His slugging percentage is always good - a key factor, I feel. However, I have serious concerns about pitching in general in the NL over the past 10 years. Add a lowered mound to the mix - and it is my opinion that Bonds is mediocre. Personally, I wouldn't vote him in to the HOF. Does anyone know off hand his post-season numbers? Alot of times, I assess a player by their post-season performance. Post season is so much more intense, I feel it "draws out" a players natural ability - or, conversely - only magnifies the obvious reality that a player is really no more than the hype they are entombed in.

I think a good point was made about the possibility of him being "juiced". I think it's a good thing Sports Illustrated is shedding some light on this. For years, it has been an undiscussed issue. Regardless of whether a fan personally feels steroids are ok to use, or not - we have to have some kind of an even playing plateau. Steroid use makes it nearly impossible for that to happen. I was glad to see Glavine (a native of the Boston area), Schilling, and Smoltz speaking out about it.

If the use of chemicals is forbidden in the olympics, why not in baseball?

My understanding is that the players union stands in the way of any formal testing being approved.

I am a traditionalist, I guess. I would go so far as to say, any player, Caminiti, McGwire - that is proven to be using these substances, should face a fine, suspension, possible ban from baseball, and possibly even be stripped of any title won during a season in which steroids were used.

My thoughts only.

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Posted By: john

you cant take away any titles from these guys when they arent breaking any rules. That doesnt make any sense.If there was a rule against steroids then you make a good point but there isnt so its moot point.I really dont care about the whole steroid issue because theres no rule.They dont allow spitballs anymore so should we take away records from guys who were doing it legally before they made the rule?.....Bonds is a great baseball player,was before he hit 73 homers in one season,and still is now.Is he the best,i dont think so,but hes definitely top 10,no one should argue that,especially since he has a few good years left before he retires

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Posted By: GlenV

Regardless of any rule in baseball, isn't it illegal to take steriods in the US.

You can't deny Tyson was a great fighter and that Barry "Go F*** Yourself" Bonds is a great baseball player -
that doesn't mean you have to like them. Barry is a saint compared to many of todays atheletes.

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Posted By: runscott

But he wouldn't make my list of "athletes I would enjoy having a beer with". But it doesn't matter - he's a great player. My evil side - I would love to see him hit a towering shot toward the fence, do his normal walk slowly and admire himself thing, and see the ball drop short of the fence and he gets a single. I've seen Fred McGriff experience this, and it's really pleasant. I went to a Rangers game on my 30th birthday and got to see Mitch Williams give up a game-winning home run in relief - truly a special moment.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Come Frank, if you really do go to games at PacBell then you know the free area behind the right field fence is known as "the Knothole"

The Knothole is the coolest concept that any team/ballpark has ever come up with. When I drove limos back in CA I used to watch games from there all the time during down times.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

Good lord, man. I think you need to be tested for drugs. You don't think Bonds is a HOFer? If he doesn't belong, then your HOF must only have about 5 every day players then.

As others have stated, you don't have to like the guy, but obviously, many people here are unable to seperate their personal hatred from analysis of a players career.

I think Mantle is a drunken ass and dislike as much as most of you seem to dislike Bonds, but that does not mean that I think Mantle doesn't belong in the HOF or that he wasn't a great player.

Jay

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Posted By: john

he didnt say whether or not it was legal,he said if he anyone used steroids their record should be taken away. theres alot of things that are illegal and alot of players that do illegal things none of them have had titles taken away or records erased. you would be drawing an imaginary line somewhere unless you do this for everything illegal.they dont take wins away from teams that steal signs do they? no,but youll never hear a team admit that because in baseball circles thats "illegal",steroids arent(makes no sense to me but whatever)....bonds is still the best player in the last 25 years,and like everyone said you dont have to like him to realize how good he is.nobody else is better and every other major leaguer could take steroids if they wanted to so he has no advantage over anyone else.....and what about the other end of the argument,say its proven he doesnt take them,and other players do,does that make him even better than he really is? my answer is no,because hes the best player there is, thats playing now....why dont they just make a rule against it then,and possibly they will because everyones making a big deal about it(whether its right to make a big deal or not,im not arguing that point)

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Posted By: runscott

and he probably doesn't even have a liver now.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

While Mantle may have been a drunk, his liver problems were a result of hepatitis and had nothing to do with his alcohol abuse. I spent quite a bit of time with Mantle in the mid to late 80's during his signing heyday, and he was always very nice to me, which is more than I can say for Mays or Dimaggio who were consistently rude. One reason Mantle may have not been very friendly while signing was his Zone like perfection and speed with which he worked. He was able to personalize, date, and specialize items without breaking the speed or consistency of his signiture. While Mantle wasn't the greatest baseball player ever, he is without a doubt the best and fastest show signer of all time, and you can read every letter of his name. later brian

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Posted By: jay behrens

well, I'm pretty sure Billy Martin is

Jay

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Jay

I don't think that's up for dicussion.
Billy's probably driving the Golf cart for Mickey as we speak, BEER IN HAND.

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Posted By: W.M.

Who cares if their not breaking any rules, anaboloc steroids are illegall under The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990. They are a schedule III narcotic. Schedule III narcotic possession is a felony in most if not all states. Amphetamine and Methamphetamine is also a schedule III narcotic. Ephedrin a main ingredient in methamphetamine is also popular with some baseball players.

Title 21 of the U.S.CODE makes possession of anabolic steroids a felony. Title 21 U.S.C. 802(41) (A) defines anabolic steroids as any drug or hormonal substance chemically and pharmaeologically related to testosterone that promotes muscle growth... it however does not make it illegall as a implant to cattle.

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Posted By: John

dont read everything i wrote above,its not worth it,youre right.(everyone else realize that my post had nothing to do with legality of steroids,and everything to do with taking records away from someone,which has never been done before,why start now).....if that comment by w.m. wasnt directed at my post then i apologize.....this is my last post in this thread,i promise,im not even reading it anymore so dont bother arguing my point vs your point. maybe scott can fill in for me if he wants,just dont bring up the rosie show,it will get ugly

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Posted By: jverri01

Scott...

How can I get on your "players I want to have a beer with" list?

Let me guess:

1-Actually PLAY ball professionally
2-NOT fall off the stool after the third beer


Am I warm?

James

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Posted By: runscott

I just don't think Barry Bonds would be much fun to spend leisure time with. After watching Shaq on ESPN this morning, I don't think he would either - he needs to lose the monotone. Mickey Mantle might well have been a bigger ass than Bonds, but I think he would be fun to party with - same for Dennis Rodman. I don't like Dick Butkus because he told me to get my butt out of the clubhouse when, as an 8-yr old, I asked him for an autograph while in my swim trunks. And I don't like Pete Rose because he told my 5-yr old brother he would sign his baseball after he put his bags in the bus, then he went and sat down in the back of the bus and just smiled out the window (JERK). Regardless, I would put all but Rodman in their respective HOF's.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hey Scott
I used to hand Mantle beers ( Miller Lite's) in between signing baseballs the night before several Charlotte Merchandise shows. Mantle could drink beer , tell stories and sign baseballs perfectly on the sweetspot all night long. The only other sports figure who can drink more beer is Rick Flair, and he is in a totally different league. I feel certain I can drink beer with the best of them, but liquor is a different story. later brian

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Posted By: runscott

Just curious if the actor captured Mantle's personality.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

I enjoyed 61 a great deal, but can't speak to Mantles behavior accept for the late 80's early 90's. I found Mantle to be happy go lucky in front of most of his admirers and a bit distrustful of sportswriters and journalist. I believe Mantle enjoyed drinking and telling stories because it allowed him to forget how he neglected his family and squandered his God given talent to have fun with the boys every night. In the end I think Mantle was sad and alone, with few close friends and hundreds of people who wanted to use him, especially Grier Johnson. I'm sure others on the board dealt with Mantle during this period and can shed further light. Back to 61, Barry Pepper was a dead ringer for Maris. later brian

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...

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Posted By: MRBADADVICE

Funny......Come to the San Fran Brian C, and I will help you break the guiness book of world records! Maybe it can all be done at once. What the heck.....we will maybe shatter the current Guiness Record!