If Dale Murphy played for the Yankees............

[Tomi]

Do you think he makes the HOF or would have made the HOF years ago? Let's say the exact numbers he has but all with the Yankees. Just wondering how people feel about player careers like his with smaller vs. bigger market teams.

[Jim65]

He probably gets a small boost but he still wouldn't be a HOFer. Murphy's highest vote total was 23%, playing in NY wouldn't get him to 75%

[D. Bergin]

I think his cards would be more collectible and sought after if he was a Yankee, but I don't think it would have affected his HOF status at all, outside of a few more percentage points in the voting one way or another.

You look at his baseball reference page, and it looks like he had a long career, but his breakout year puts him at a bit of a late bloomer, and his last real solid year was in his early 30's.

A lot of his career was spent either waiting for him to realize his potential, or waiting for him to get back to the guy he used to be.

He may still get in, especially if Tony LaRussa takes up his cause one of these years.

[SAllen2556]

Is there really a Yankee bias when it comes to the Hall of Fame? As much as I love to hate the Yankees, in my lifetime I've seen several borderline hall of fame Yankees who seem like they would have gotten in if there truly was a bias.

Thurman Munson, Don Mattingly, Graig Nettles, Rod Guidry, Willie Randolph were all really good players on championship teams yet none of them are in. Munson especially surprises me.

When I was a kid Dale Murphy was like Steve Garvey, who was like Graig Nettles, who was like Dave Parker. It seemed like they were all going to be HOF'ers eventually, but instead they put in Burt Blyleven - who never seemed like a hall-of-famer.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

Is there really a Yankee bias when it comes to the Hall of Fame? As much as I love to hate the Yankees, in my lifetime I've seen several borderline hall of fame Yankees who seem like they would have gotten in if there truly was a bias.

Thurman Munson, Don Mattingly, Graig Nettles, Rod Guidry, Willie Randolph were all really good players on championship teams yet none of them are in. Munson especially surprises me.

When I was a kid Dale Murphy was like Steve Garvey, who was like Graig Nettles, who was like Dave Parker. It seemed like they were all going to be HOF'ers eventually, but instead they put in Burt Blyleven - who never seemed like a hall-of-famer.

Agreed. While the Yankees, like pretty much every old team has some questionable HOFers like Phil Rizzuto, they may also have the most borderline Hall of Famers of any team. In addition to the ones listed (Mattingly, Nettles, Guidry, Randolph and Munson), you've got:


1) Bernie Williams (5x All Star, 4x World Series, Batting Title, 49.6 bWAR)
2) Jorge Posada (5x All Star, 4x World Series, 42.7 bWAR)
3) Charlie Keller (5x All Star, 5 World Series, OPS+ 152, 43.8 bWAR)
4) Roger Maris (7x All Star, 2x MVP, 3 World Series, hit 61 HRs, 38.2 bWAR)
5) Roy White (2x All Star, 2x World Series, 46.8 bWAR)
6) Gil McDougald (ROY, 6x All Star, 5x World Series, 40.6 bWAR
7) Roger Peckinpaugh (MVP, World Series, 45.2 bWAR)
8) Mel Stottlemyre (5x All Star, 43.1 bWAR)
9) David Wells (3x All Star, World Series, 53.5 bWAR)
10) Tommy John (4x All Star, 61.6 bWAR)
11) David Cone (Cy Young, 5x All Star, 5x World Series, 62.3 bWAR).

Would like to see David Cone get in some day.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Agreed. While the Yankees, like pretty much every old team has some questionable HOFers like Phil Rizzuto, they may also have the most borderline Hall of Famers of any team. In addition to the ones listed (Mattingly, Nettles, Guidry, Randolph and Munson), you've got:


1) Bernie Williams (5x All Star, 4x World Series, Batting Title, 49.6 bWAR)
2) Jorge Posada (5x All Star, 4x World Series, 42.7 bWAR)
3) Charlie Keller (5x All Star, 5 World Series, OPS+ 152, 43.8 bWAR)
4) Roger Maris (7x All Star, 2x MVP, 3 World Series, hit 61 HRs, 38.2 bWAR)
5) Roy White (2x All Star, 2x World Series, 46.8 bWAR)
6) Gil McDougald (ROY, 6x All Star, 5x World Series, 40.6 bWAR
7) Roger Peckinpaugh (MVP, World Series, 45.2 bWAR)
8) Mel Stottlemyre (5x All Star, 43.1 bWAR)
9) David Wells (3x All Star, World Series, 53.5 bWAR)
10) Tommy John (4x All Star, 61.6 bWAR)
11) David Cone (Cy Young, 5x All Star, 5x World Series, 62.3 bWAR).

Would like to see David Cone get in some day.

Well Said and Great List

Would love to see Cone in also

Murphy would not get in even in a Yankee Uniform

[Seven]

It's been said in some past posts, but I think the Yankees Bias amongst the sportswriters nowadays has gone by the wayside. Murphy was a very good player, that belongs in the Hall of Very Good.

Do I think he's more deserving of some of the veterans that have gotten in through the old veterans committee, or some recent selections like Tim Raines? Yes I do. But If I'm being honest, the Hall of Fames standards aren't what they used to be, and there's too many players in, that shouldn't be. At least it's not like the NBA or NFL where literally everyone gets in.

[packs]

Any evidence for this Yankees bump in HOF voting? If anything, today I think playing for the Yankees doesn't come with any favors. Bernie Williams lasted two votes. Jorge Posada lasted just one.

I'm not saying either of these guys are locks for the HOF but they were a lot better than 99.9% of all other players on the ballot for one or two voting cycles.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Agreed. While the Yankees, like pretty much every old team has some questionable HOFers like Phil Rizzuto, they may also have the most borderline Hall of Famers of any team.

Great point. Murphy does not surpass anyone on your list and further. He does not match the historic contribution to the game of either Munson or Mattingly. There would be no additional chance than what his has now.

In my honest opinion, his chances would be worse due to those comparisons. It helps the memory of him to have played all those years on the Braves as he has stronger comparison in retrospect to other Braves not in the hall. Who is out that has equilateral skill level on the Braves? Sheffield or Andruw Jones?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Seven

At least it's not like the NBA or NFL where literally everyone gets in.

Huh?

The NFL prior to the Covid years had a stellar record and put a solid class yearly in a sport with rosters twice the size. The NBA is very hard to get in and has just a small percentage of the members in comparison with small classes. Since the 2000s they have had leaned to bulking by adding at least one woman a year and FIBA international contributors but still have very strong NBA contributors. It's loosened but still has no worse a record than the MLB. Not seeing the proof of MLB exceptionalism here.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Huh?

The NFL prior to the Covid years had a stellar record and put a solid class yearly in a sport with rosters twice the size. The NBA is very hard to get in and has just a small percentage of the members in comparison with small classes. Since the 2000s they have had leaned to bulking by adding at least one woman a year and FIBA international contributors but still have very strong NBA contributors. It's loosened but still has no worse a record than the MLB. Not seeing the proof of MLB exceptionalism here.

Yeah, pretty much agree with this sentiment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Agreed. While the Yankees, like pretty much every old team has some questionable HOFers like Phil Rizzuto, they may also have the most borderline Hall of Famers of any team. In addition to the ones listed (Mattingly, Nettles, Guidry, Randolph and Munson), you've got:


1) Bernie Williams (5x All Star, 4x World Series, Batting Title, 49.6 bWAR)
2) Jorge Posada (5x All Star, 4x World Series, 42.7 bWAR)
3) Charlie Keller (5x All Star, 5 World Series, OPS+ 152, 43.8 bWAR)
4) Roger Maris (7x All Star, 2x MVP, 3 World Series, hit 61 HRs, 38.2 bWAR)
5) Roy White (2x All Star, 2x World Series, 46.8 bWAR)
6) Gil McDougald (ROY, 6x All Star, 5x World Series, 40.6 bWAR
7) Roger Peckinpaugh (MVP, World Series, 45.2 bWAR)
8) Mel Stottlemyre (5x All Star, 43.1 bWAR)
9) David Wells (3x All Star, World Series, 53.5 bWAR)
10) Tommy John (4x All Star, 61.6 bWAR)
11) David Cone (Cy Young, 5x All Star, 5x World Series, 62.3 bWAR).

Would like to see David Cone get in some day.

I don't see any real distance between Jim Kaat and Tommy John.

[G1911]

No.

Murphy is not in the Hall of Fame because Atlanta is a small-market (I guess anything but LA or NY is a small market now?), he is not in because the voters looked at the math instead of his popularity.

I am hard pressed to think of a team with more guys not in the Hall of Fame but who have an argument than the Yankees. I am unable to identify many underserving Yankee since WWII (the 1930's have the lowest standards and many teams have numerous undeserving players from that period). Phil Rizzuto, Catfish Hunter & Joe Gordon, though I think only Rizzuto is in because he was a Yankee. Hunter is in for his 5 20 win seasons, 80% with the A's. I'm not sure this implicit claim is supportable at all.

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Huh?

The NFL prior to the Covid years had a stellar record and put a solid class yearly in a sport with rosters twice the size. The NBA is very hard to get in and has just a small percentage of the members in comparison with small classes. Since the 2000s they have had leaned to bulking by adding at least one woman a year and FIBA international contributors but still have very strong NBA contributors. It's loosened but still has no worse a record than the MLB. Not seeing the proof of MLB exceptionalism here.

The NFL has inducted over 120 players in the past 10 years into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Many are deserving yet too many players are getting in.

Please keep in mind that yes the roster sizes are larger but it has become a league of specialists with fewer every down players, especially on defense. It has been this way for nearly 30 years.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by mortimer brewster

The NFL has inducted over 120 players in the past 10 years into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Many are deserving yet too many players are getting in.

Please keep in mind that yes the roster sizes are larger but it has become a league of specialists with fewer every down players, especially on defense. It has been this way for nearly 30 years.

This is what I was referring to.

The NBA has 400 Inductees to the Hall of Fame. It's only existed since 1959.

The MLB has 342 inductees. Despite being around for 20 more years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

This is what I was referring to.

The NBA has 400 Inductees to the Hall of Fame. It's only existed since 1959.

The MLB has 342 inductees. Despite being around for 20 more years.

This is not the relevant comparison, the relevant comparison is how long MLB has been around vs. the NBA.

[wagnerj03]

Compare Alan Trammell to Dale Murphy and convince me that Murphy doesn't belong and Trammell does. Trammell never led in any major hitting category for a single season. Not one category. No MVP's, fewer All-Star appearances, fewer Gold Gloves and fewer Silver Sluggers. Just not sure how certain guys get in vs others.

IMG_6733.jpeg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wagnerj03

Compare Alan Trammell to Dale Murphy and convince me that Murphy doesn't belong and Trammell does. Trammell never led in any major hitting category for a single season. Not one category. No MVP's, fewer All-Star appearances, fewer Gold Gloves and fewer Silver Sluggers. Just not sure how certain guys get in vs others.

Attachment 574339

A SS with good defense and a RF with good defense (the modern stats don't like Murphy's defense so much) are not evaluated as even at the plate, either traditionally or via the new stats. There is no odd standard here, Trammell squeaked in as a low end HOF SS, Murphy is outside in the Hall of Very Good among RF's. A RF with a 121 OPS+ vs. a SS with a 110 OPS+ is going to result in the SS being rated higher 99 times out of 100. We would have like 3 SS's in the hall and 100 1B otherwise.

[mortimer brewster]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

When I was a kid Dale Murphy was like Steve Garvey, who was like Graig Nettles, who was like Dave Parker. It seemed like they were all going to be HOF'ers eventually, but instead they put in Burt Blyleven - who never seemed like a hall-of-famer.

Blyleven holds the major League record for winning the most 1-0 games (15) more than anyone in the history of MLB except the Big Train.

He also lost nine 1-0 games.

Jack Morris and Bert Blyleven get little respect from fans in regards to the Hall of Fame. They were both money pitchers in the post season and compiled outstanding regular season records compared to their peers.

I would be very comfortable having to rely on either one to be my starting pitcher in the seventh game of the World Series.

Could you say the same for hofers like Kaat, Niekro, Bunning and Sutton?

[mrreality68]

Here is a photo of Murphy signing his photo at the HOF induction weekend in 2014
Does not age well but as a person very nice took extra time to talk to my son and I

[G1911]

Originally Posted by mortimer brewster

Blyleven holds the major League record for winning the most 1-0 games (15) more than anyone in the history of MLB except the Big Train.

He also lost nine 1-0 games.

I am very surprised to hear that Blyleven is second. I would think this list would be dominated by deadball pitchers who 1) had more win opportunities than pitchers of the 70’s and 80’s and 2) played in a low run environment where a 1-0 game was a more common occurrence. Interesting stat.

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by mortimer brewster

Blyleven holds the major League record for winning the most 1-0 games (15) more than anyone in the history of MLB except the Big Train.

He also lost nine 1-0 games.

Jack Morris and Bert Blyleven get little respect from fans in regards to the Hall of Fame. They were both money pitchers in the post season and compiled outstanding regular season records compared to their peers.

I would be very comfortable having to rely on either one to be my starting pitcher in the seventh game of the World Series.

Could you say the same for hofers like Kaat, Niekro, Bunning and Sutton?

As a lifetime Tiger fan I would take Jack Morris for game 7 over Justin Verlander. But is he a hall-of-fame pitcher? I don't know. I'd actually take Mickey Lolich over Jack Morris for a big game, but he's nowhere near considered a hall of famer.

I'm fine with Blyleven in the hall; it's just that watching him over his career he never seemed to be considered in the same league as guys like Carlton, Seaver, and even Jim Palmer. But it was the same with Phil Niekro and Gaylord Perry. They never seemed like hall-of-famers either during their careers. It wasn't until they were done and you looked at their long careers and the stats they accumulated that they were considered elite.

And I'd be fine with Dale Murphy getting in. What's Jim Rice got that Dale Murphy hasn't got?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

What's Jim Rice got that Dale Murphy hasn't got?

A .298 lifetime batting average. That matters to a lot of voters.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

A .298 lifetime batting average. That matters to a lot of voters.

Right. Comparable power but Rice was a significantly better hitter.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Jim65

A .298 lifetime batting average. That matters to a lot of voters.

Also, 6 Top 5 MVP finishes.

Modern analytics don't quite appreciate Rice as much as people who actually watched him play. He was a high average power hitter, who for some reason, didn't really walk very much, which hurts a lot of his non-traditional stats.

In the AL East he was either the most feared hitter in the division or Top 3, for a good 10 years.

Unfortunately, his age 33 year was pretty much his last season as a serviceable player.

Murphy and Rice have an almost identical number of career plate appearances. Rice's offensive numbers (traditional and non-traditional) are better almost all the way across the board. Not a lot better....but better.

Murphy probably the better baserunner and Outfielder. For anybody who watched him play, Rice was no slouch in Left Field either. He learned to play that wall better then most I have seen out there over the years.

Both benefited pretty equally from favorable splits in their home parks.

Most amazing thing about Rice, that never made sense to me. He led the league in triples in 1978 with 15, and had nearly as many triples from 1976 to 1978 (38), as Dale Murphy had in his entire career (39).

All that said, I'd have no problem with Murphy eventually getting in the Hall of Fame just for his run from 1980 to 1987 as one of the most dynamic players in the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The biggest negative for me on Rice is he grounded into tons of double plays. And always, it seemed, at the worst times.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The biggest negative for me on Rice is he grounded into tons of double plays. And always, it seemed, at the worst times.

It was because he hit the ball so hard, and he liked to put the ball in play, rather then taking lots of walks. I don't think they really became a problem for him until around 1982.

I chalk that up to a few factors, but no, if wasn't always convenient for his team.