Heritage Auction - Cobb with Brown Lenox Back

[Yoda]

Perhaps it is the scan or my eyes growing old, but the captioned card has me puzzled. I have handled a few Brown Lenox backs in the past and they were definitely brown in color. The one in the Heritage auction ending tomorrow looks a lot more black than brown to me. Since it is graded, bidders will be confident that it is the real deal. But even if I could afford such a rare card, which I can't, I wouldn't bid on it.

[HobokenJon]

I’ve deleted this post. Ryan, I stand corrected.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Perhaps it is the scan or my eyes growing old, but the captioned card has me puzzled. I have handled a few Brown Lenox backs in the past and they were definitely brown in color. The one in the Heritage auction ending tomorrow looks a lot more black than brown to me. Since it is graded, bidders will be confident that it is the real deal. But even if I could afford such a rare card, which I can't, I wouldn't bid on it.

First, just because PSA says it’s a certain color does not make it so. PSA is color blind and they mess up too much. This Crawford is 1000% a brown Lenox. PSA blew this one.

That said, the Cobb is brown

Brown Lenox are not typically the color of brown Hindu (brown old mills are), and their shade of brown can vary from one brown Lenox to the next. I have owned 10-12 of these, and still own 5+, including this crawford. Some browns are darker than others but are all brown when put next to a black

[Pat R]

Ryan is correct unlike the Hindu's which are a pretty consistent there is a wide variation in the Brown Lenox.

All of these are Brown Lenox.

Brown Lenox Group.jpg

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ryan is correct unlike the Hindu's which are a pretty consistent there is a wide variation in the Brown Lenox.

All of these are Brown Lenox.

Attachment 559512

Not disputing you, but you'd have a helluva time getting me to spend brown money on 4 of those.

[MVSNYC]

Edited comment about Pat's scans.

Re: The Cobb Brown Lenox. Heritage has the best (hi-res) scans in the business. When you enlarge it, and compare the ink to the black background under the PSA case (seen in the scans), the Lenox definitely reads Brown.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Not disputing you, but you'd have a helluva time getting me to spend brown money on 4 of those.

Even if the 4th on top and the bottom two were the only brown ones (bc they are clearly browner than the others), you can see the serious differences in shades between just those 3.

[sflayank]

100% 3 brown 4 black

[calvindog]

The Cobb Brown Lenox is on top. A Chase Black Lenox is on the bottom. The Cobb is clearly brown.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Not disputing you, but you'd have a helluva time getting me to spend brown money on 4 of those.

Me too I posted the wrong image.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Me too I posted the wrong image.

LOL good to know I'm not crazy.

[notfast]

I’m still wondering why someone bought this card for $222k 3 months ago and sold it so quickly taking an $80k loss.

[tedzan]

Deleted.

[tedzan]

To date, 26 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory (Posted on Net54 6 years ago) proves true, I predict that only 11 (or 12 more) T206 cards may eventually be discovered
with the brown LENOX backs. Currently, exactly 20 subjects of the 26 known brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series.........


350/460 series....Group B (brown LENOX candidates).




350/460 series subjects currently confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series subjects currently confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I am convinced that the brown LENOX cards were factory-cut, and they were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.
American Lithograph's QA simply missed (or overlooked) that they were printed with the wrong color.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by notfast

I’m still wondering why someone bought this card for $222k 3 months ago and sold it so quickly taking an $80k loss.

Somewhat similar to the Cobb Old Mill PSA 7 selling for 73K+ on December 11 and 60K last night.

[MVSNYC]

Matt and Jeff (Hi Jeff, long time, hope you're well)-

Likely a case(s) of when you take a big bidder out of the equation (the consigners), prices will be lower by default.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Me too I posted the wrong image.

Ah, ok. Thought I was going crazy too, haha.


BTW, I recently did a side by side screenshot of a Black Lenox I owned (just traded it to a board member), and my Brown Lenox (McQuillan). Pretty distinct difference.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Matt and Jeff (Hi Jeff, long time, hope you're well)-

Likely a case(s) of when you take a big bidder out of the equation (the consigners), prices will be lower by default.

The question is more why someone would buy and then try to sell so quickly

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Ah, ok. Thought I was going crazy too, haha.


BTW, I recently did a side by side screenshot of a Black Lenox I owned (just traded it to a board member), and my Brown Lenox (McQuillan). Pretty distinct difference.

Michael, McQuillan is a good subject to use in comparing the different Browns. Your McQuillan is the Brown shade that stands out the most. There are four different brown Lenox McQuillans and they are all a different shade of brown.

McQuillan 1 - Copy.jpg

[MVSNYC]

Hi Pat- Yes, there is a variance between all 4 cards.

I currently own the top left example (PSA 1.5), and used to own the top right (SGC A).

Larger scans:

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by notfast

The question is more why someone would buy and then try to sell so quickly

Matt, who knows their situation, maybe they needed funds quickly? (shoulder shrug)

[tedzan]

First, in my above Post #14 here I left out Tinker (bat off shoulder). I think Ryan H. has this card with the brown LENOX back.
Therefore, 27 brown LENOX cards have been confirmed.

OK......here is my colorful Brown LENOX checklist for those of you searching for T206 cards with this back. This list is based on
my theory regarding the brown LENOX phenomena, which I presented 7 years ago on Net54.

Seven years ago there were 17 brown LENOX T206's known. The 10 that have surfaced since then all conform to my prediction.
So, I feel confident that ultimately there will only be a total of the 37 listed here that exist.


Hey guys, take a close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection


CONFIRMED......27 Brown LENOX subjects. Ten possible Candidates may eventually be confirmed with Brown LENOX.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Correct Ted, here is the Tinker. I was very upset to learn it existed- back runs suck!!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

First, in my above Post #14 here I left out Tinker (bat off shoulder). I think Ryan H. has this card with the brown LENOX back.
Therefore, 27 brown LENOX cards have been confirmed.

OK......here is my colorful Brown LENOX checklist for those of you searching for T206 cards with this back. This list is based on
my theory regarding the brown LENOX phenomena, which I presented 7 years ago on Net54.

Seven years ago there were 17 brown LENOX T206's known. The 10 that have surfaced since then all conform to my prediction.
So, I feel confident that ultimately there will only be a total of the 37 listed here that exist.


Hey guys, take a close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection


CONFIRMED......27 Brown LENOX subjects. Ten possible Candidates may eventually be confirmed with Brown LENOX.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, there were 22 confirmed Brown Lenox 8 years ago, here's a conversation we had about them back in 2015 when I pointed out their possible connection with the AB460's to you in one of your American Beauty threads.

Originally Posted by Pat R

I have mentioned this once before but it didn't receive any opinions either
way so I thought I would try it here.

All of the confirmed Brown Lenox subjects are also AB 460 subjects so I was
thinking it might be possible that some(or all) of the sheets used for the
AB 460's were also used for the Brown Lenox.

While the Brown Lenox is an extremely rare back (22 different subjects confirmed so far) it seems odd that none of the possible 34 non AB 460
subjects has been confirmed with a Brown Lenox. So could it be that not all Black Lenox subjects are possible with Brown Lenox and only AB 460 subjects are?

Originally Posted by tedzan

Very interesting observation, Pat.

We do know that some of the sheets used to print the AB 460 backs were also used to print the UZIT backs.

But it remains to be seen if this is also true for the AB 460 cards and the brown LENOX cards, since (to date)
there are only 22 examples of the brown LENOX cards.

Furthermore, it is quite puzzling that 4 subjects (Lajoie, Overall, Pfeister, Wagner) of these 22 brown LENOX
cards have yet to be confirmed with black LENOX backs ? ? ? ?


Incidentally, there are 35 subjects that are AB 460 No-Prints (not 34).



TED Z
.

Originally Posted by Pat R

I agree with you Ted, it's not much to gauge off with only 22 confirmed subjects but with 32% of the subjects being AB 460 no prints you would think at least a couple of the Confirmed Brown Lenox would be from this group if they are a possible front back combo.

Originally Posted by tedzan

In any event, I think this connection is worth tracking....who knows where it will lead us.

Only The Monster knows !


TED Z
.