Excited for CCG (CSG)?

[Usc1]

I’m pretty excited to have another legitimate grading company join the market. Just wondering how long it’ll take before collectors will send cards there regularly for grading? Seems like PSA is still running strong but their turn around times are way too long.


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[drcy]

[Casey2296]

I'm holding off on a large order hoping their flip includes a black apron and a decent looking label. If they hit those two requirements I'll be more than happy to send them the order. They have been in the grading game a long time so I'm assuming they would have the actual grading of the card similar to industry standards, if there are any standards, and from a few posts here apparently they have hired some good graders. Just looking at those pre-war cards in REA with SGC's abomination of a label makes me cringe. Too bad really, because the cards present so much better with a black apron, SGC just missed the mark on the label.

[Tyruscobb]

Although competition generally benefits consumers (e.g. lower prices, better service, etc.), I’m skeptical that any new third-party grader will help solve the hobby’s biggest problem - altered cards receiving numerical grades and over-grading.

The reason is the vintage fee structure. Most TPGs do not have a flat fee. Instead, the fee varies depending on the card’s value. This creates a subconscious financial incentive (and, unfortunately, probably a conscious one for some TPGs) to over-grade. Over-grading increases the card’s price, which, in turn, increases the fee. An increased fee increases the company’s profitability, which, in turn, may increase the grader’s pay. The current vintage fee structure has too many interest conflicts that have created the current problems.

Removing the financial incentive to over-grading is what needs to happen to fix the problem. TPGs should charge a flat fee to grade a vintage card whether it is a beater or a gem-mint 10. The fee should not vary depending on whether the card comes back a Poor 1 or gem 10. So, unless any new grader uses a flat vintage fee, the problem will continue.

A new TPG will make the existing TPGs improve their services and fees, as well as reduce turnaround times. However, any new TPG that uses the same vintage fee is equivalent to putting a bandage on a bullet wound - it will not cure the underlying problem. It may temporarily improve the situation, but eventually even a new TPG’s actual graders will fall victim to the above-referenced dilemma - increasing the company’s bottom line.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I’m skeptical that any new third-party grader will help solve the hobby’s biggest problem - altered cards receiving numerical grades and over-grading.

well said

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

...I’m skeptical that any new third-party grader will help solve the hobby’s biggest problem - altered cards receiving numerical grades and over-grading...

This.

The number of altered cards that get numerical grades is alarming. Trimming has become so prevalent, it seems as though most PSA holders could double as maracas.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Although competition generally benefits consumers (e.g. lower prices, better service, etc.), I’m skeptical that any new third-party grader will help solve the hobby’s biggest problem - altered cards receiving numerical grades and over-grading.

The reason is the vintage fee structure. Most TPGs do not have a flat fee. Instead, the fee varies depending on the card’s value. This creates a subconscious financial incentive (and, unfortunately, probably a conscious one for some TPGs) to over-grade. Over-grading increases the card’s price, which, in turn, increases the fee. An increased fee increases the company’s profitability, which, in turn, may increase the grader’s pay. The current vintage fee structure has too many interest conflicts that have created the current problems.

Removing the financial incentive to over-grading is what needs to happen to fix the problem. TPGs should charge a flat fee to grade a vintage card whether it is a beater or a gem-mint 10. The fee should not vary depending on whether the card comes back a Poor 1 or gem 10. So, unless any new grader uses a flat vintage fee, the problem will continue.

A new TPG will make the existing TPGs improve their services and fees, as well as reduce turnaround times. However, any new TPG that uses the same vintage fee is equivalent to putting a bandage on a bullet wound - it will not cure the underlying problem. It may temporarily improve the situation, but eventually even a new TPG’s actual graders will fall victim to the above-referenced dilemma - increasing the company’s bottom line.

I’m sympathetic to this argument but it doesn’t answer a key issue: prices in every realm of the economy help find equilibrium between supply and demand. A big problem now is that people are sending in very inexpensive cards relative to the grading fee. You see it even with vintage where the grading fee is close to the value of certain vintage commons. A modification of this idea would be to set the grading fee on a scale based on the SMR value of a certain grade of the card, regardless of actual grade. This could have the same benefits of the above plan with the added benefit of metering the demand more.

[Usc1]

Originally Posted by Eric72

This.

The number of altered cards that get numerical grades is alarming. Trimming has become so prevalent, it seems as though most PSA holders could double as maracas.

I don’t this problem will ever be resolved unfortunately. Maybe even get worse with improving technology.


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[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Usc1

I don’t this problem will ever be resolved unfortunately. Maybe even get worse with improving technology.


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In a perfect world, technology would also improve on the alteration detection front.

I know, I know. Dream the impossible dream...

[hockeyhockey]

what's the latest on CCG starting up? i'm not well-versed on this, so apologies if this is a dumb question.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by hockeyhockey

what's the latest on CCG starting up? i'm not well-versed on this, so apologies if this is a dumb question.

Here is one of their press releases from last week.,.,

CERTIFIED COLLECTIBLES GROUP
P.O. Box 4776
Sarasota, FL 34230

Contact:
Janell Armstrong, Marketing Coordinator
941.360.3990 ext. 236
jarmstrong@collectiblesgroup.com
CSG Attending Sport Card Expo Virtual Edition
SARASOTA, Fla. (November 20, 2020) — The lead sports card graders from Certified Sports Guaranty™ (CSG™), Andy Broome and Westin Reeves, are excited to attend the Sport Card Expo Virtual Edition, taking place online, November 21 and 22, 2020.
Broome and Reeves will be on the mainstage on Saturday, November 21, from 3:00 to 3:45 pm EDT, to share information and answer questions about CSG’s soon-to-launch sports card authentication, grading and encapsulation services.
They will also be available to chat at the CSG virtual booth on November 21, from 11:00 am to 12:00 pm EDT and from 4:00 to 5:00 pm EDT, and on November 22, from 11:00 am to 12:00 pm EDT.
CSG is the latest company to be formed by the Certified Collectibles Group® (CCG®), which also includes the world’s largest and leading grading services for coins, paper money, comic books and related collectibles. Since 1987, the CCG companies have certified nearly 60 million collectibles with a combined fair market value of more than $30 billion.
Just as with CCG’s other categories, CSG will revolutionize sports card grading by leveraging world-class expertise, advanced technology, innovation and operational excellence.
More than any other third-party sports card grading service, CSG will use advanced authentication and grading technology to make the certification process more precise and efficient. Artificial intelligence (AI) will help to automate many of the more time-consuming aspects of grading, and the CSG graders will be equipped with forensic devices that reveal alterations and hidden details through ultra-microscopic inspections as well as non-destructive ink and paper analysis.
The CSG holder and label will also be game-changers in the industry. The holder is sleek and strong, offering superior display and protection. The label is bold and clear, providing a detailed description of the card, its grade, its unique CSG certification number and a QR code to facilitate quick verification. Both the CSG holder and label include extensive security features to prevent against tampering and counterfeiting.
Collectors will also appreciate that the CSG Guarantee of authenticity and grade will be the strongest of any third-party sports card grading service.
Want to learn more? Don’t miss CSG at the Sport Card Expo Virtual Edition! Visit sportcardexpo.com for more information.
About Certified Collectibles Group® (CCG®)
CCG comprises seven of the world’s leading collectibles services companies: Numismatic Guaranty Corporation® (NGC®), Numismatic Conservation Services™ (NCS®), Paper Money Guaranty® (PMG®), Certified Guaranty Company® (CGC®), Classic Collectible Services® (CCS®), Authenticated Stamp Guaranty® (ASG® ) and Collectibles Authentication Guaranty® (CAG®). The CCG companies provide expert and impartial services that add value and liquidity to a wide variety of collectibles, including coins, banknotes, comic books, magazines, concert posters, stamps and estate items. An eighth company, Certified Sports Guaranty™ (CSG™), will soon provide expert authentication and grading services for sports cards. Today, the CCG companies have certified nearly 60 million collectibles and maintain offices in Sarasota, Florida; London, England; Munich, Germany; and Shanghai and Hong Kong, China. To learn more, visit collectiblesgroup.com

© 2020 Certified Collectibles Group. All rights reserved.
NGC, NCS, PMG, CGC, CCS, ASG, CAG, CSG and CCG are the registered trademarks or unregistered trademarks of Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of America, and/or its related companies in the United States and/or other countries. All other names and marks referenced in this release are the trade names, trademarks, or service marks of their respective owners.



.

[3-2-count]

Thanks Leon. I missed this press release!

I hope these guys come out swinging and kick A$$....

[rdwyer]

I like.

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Leon

More than any other third-party sports card grading service, CSG will use advanced authentication and grading technology to make the certification process more precise and efficient. Artificial intelligence (AI) will help to automate many of the more time-consuming aspects of grading, and the CSG graders will be equipped with forensic devices that reveal alterations and hidden details through ultra-microscopic inspections as well as non-destructive ink and paper analysis.

That's a big statement. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[glynparson]

Lol,no.

[Yoda]

I agree with most of what has been said, but isn't the pressing today is for the existing TPG to start to clear this humungous backlog backlog, which is clearly unacceptable to their submitters and followers?

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

I like.

This prototype is not aesthetically pleasing. The flip is too large. Its size appears to be about 40% of the actual card! A large flips distract from the card’s overall presentation. Plus, it appears the actual holder is longer too.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

I like.

Ugly as hell. You'd think a company with that many resources would hire a graphic designer team to make the label aestheticly pleasing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The two most important questions, for me, for any grading service are (1) who are the graders and (2) will the company resist the easy and plentiful money that comes from gratifying high volume dealers and card doctors.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm holding off on a large order hoping their flip includes a black apron and a decent looking label. If they hit those two requirements I'll be more than happy to send them the order. They have been in the grading game a long time so I'm assuming they would have the actual grading of the card similar to industry standards, if there are any standards, and from a few posts here apparently they have hired some good graders. Just looking at those pre-war cards in REA with SGC's abomination of a label makes me cringe. Too bad really, because the cards present so much better with a black apron, SGC just missed the mark on the label.

I second this! SGC had perfect labels before... have no clue why they opted for their current atrocity! Was working on a project with all SGC slabs and decided to go in a different direction because I had a bunch of raws and didn't like the non-uniform look with the older slabs and the new ones.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

I like.

No-go on vintage for me, but that Jordan looks pretty solid. Nice slab for modern cards!

[PhillyFan1883]

Their holders are hideous. I like the competition though- to keep things more honest is the hope..

[oldeboo]

I like that they show the subgrades unlike PSA or SGC. I think with pre-war it's hard to beat the look of the SGC black frames. At the end of the day, I'm more worried about the card and in the case of grading, accuracy. It's human nature to not like change, but I'll keep an open mind until we start seeing the results from the actual grading. If they address some of the main issues in the current landscape I wouldn't mind if the labels were pink, honestly.

They are also, relatively recently, offering a wide variety of labels and holders in the coin industry. I'm not saying they transfer similar options to the card world, but it's a possibility to be aware of. I could see them eventually offering a T206 label, Goudey label, etc. Check these out if you're curious, you can click on the different labels to see all of the options:
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/labels/
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/

[Directly]

Showing the Centering, Corner, Edges, and Surface grades is something PSA, SGC should be doing--

[familytoad]

I was looking forward to an option since PSA is what it is, and SGC fell asleep at the wheel a few years ago.
But I’d rather wait 6 months for SGC than use that hideous slab.

For disclosure, I have about 35 PSA cards and about 500 SGC cards.
I stopped submitting to SGC when they went to their latest huge font flip and destroyed their registry.

Even though I view TPG as a necessary part of this hobby now, someone has to view this necessity from a collector’s standpoint too.
These guys are facilitating the flipping market only.

News flash, collectors who want to keep the card want a good presentation, a safe slab to hold their gems, good consistent service, and maybe a way to document the collection.

Maybe there isn’t enough money in that...so here we are with year long backlogs and people only wanting perfect cards. Too sterile for this old time collector.

I wish the new company the best. But more of the same isn’t what I want.

[68Hawk]

The above Jordan grades provide some interesting information off the bat, if you squint hard enough...

To my eyes, and yes just via this teeny tiny image, top border and right border appear larger than lower and left borders. Maybe as much as 55/45 each.

9.5 grade on centering, so I'm guessing one can expect tolerances for centering at least as big as the ones on display...

Interesting, because that's one of the few measureables I've always thought easiest to calibrate and universally agree upon.
Obvous centering issues big enough to hurt eye appeal getting a gem mint grade has always really bothered me, and I'd prefer the ultimate grades being held back for cards that were exactly that in every examination. No matter the vagaries of the issue and common cutting problems, that's the glory of an item labeled gem mint. A perfect looking card, both to the eye and upon closer examination.

Flip is rubbish too for mine, waaaaaaaaay to big and obvious the company didn't care too much for responses on this site to an early rendition of the holder to drive their thinking.

[rjackson44]

Will be using them ,,hope there is no backlog .good luck to them.

[PhillyFan1883]

News flash, collectors who want to keep the card want a good presentation, a safe slab to hold their gems, good consistent service, and maybe a way to document the collectio

Maybe there isn’t enough money in that...so here we are with year long backlogs and people only wanting perfect cards. Too sterile for this old time collector.

I wish the new company the best. But more of the same isn’t what I want.[/QUOTE]

I agree.. Good points. Something about black holders for the Pre war cards that is classic. The new company will change over the years but I am not rushing to send them anything until they show me value..

[Oscar_Stanage]

the slabs are horrific. I cannot believe this is what they ended up with - aesthetics are the easiest part of the equation. But it's still better than PSA slabs where the area around the card wrinkles up.

[Wanaselja]

Originally Posted by Wid_Conroy

the slabs are horrific. I cannot believe this is what they ended up with - aesthetics are the easiest part of the equation. But it's still better than PSA slabs where the area around the card wrinkles up.

Agreed. Keep it simple and tasteful - dare I say timeless? This already looks dated.

[ClementeFanOh]

Hi and Happy Thanksgiving to all- I'm happy to submit a few "test" examples to see how they do. If they are accurate and timely then they will get more of my cards. There's no way to be worse than PSA, so they have that going for them My two cents...Trent King

[parkplace33]

I actually like these slabs. Very clean.

[Eric72]

If people are still collecting flips/holders, and not really concerned with the cards, this company will do just fine.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I actually like these slabs. Very clean.

I like them as well. To each their own, but I swear we as collectors complain about the smallest things sometimes.

If a card is authenticated both correctly and in a timely fashion that is what's most important to me.

[Johnny630]

Bottom line will be this....if the slabs sell strong they will be popular and do well. If not they will get hated on and complained about. Timely is nice but most don’t care other then resale value being strong.

I wish them well and am looking forward to seeing their slabbed cards in person.

[perezfan]

Even though I dislike the aesthetics and larger size of the slab/flip...

If they can get the cards to sit in there straight (and not tilted, or utilizing a horrific ugly baggie) they are still better looking than PSA.

I will give them a shot for some of my larger cards (1952 Topps/1953 Bowman). For the smaller Tobacco and Caramel Cards, I'm afraid the flip is far too big in relation to the card itself, and will thus present rather poorly.

[Lorewalker]

The slab has decent eye appeal. I love that there is another option but this just seems like Beckett all over again, does it not? I think the most important aspect in a grading co is not what the holder looks like but who is grading the stuff we send in. I have never bought a Beckett graded card nor sent one to them for grading so...

[glchen]

I don't know if I'm a fan of the holder. They probably should have something like the black label that Beckett has for 10's. Right now, the TPG's are broken down into:

PSA: best set registry, highest resale value
SGC: best, most consistent graders
Beckett: best holders (ie. best card protection), best for modern cards?

I wonder what will differentiate CSG?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

No-go on vintage for me, but that Jordan looks pretty solid. Nice slab for modern cards!

Pretty solid for a trimmed card, like 90% of all Jordan Rookies

[brewing]

Soooo, has anyone sent them cards for grading?