Could that be someone other than Foley White in the white border tobacco cards, T206???

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

White, Houston.

That is the southern leaguer that we've collected in the white border tobacco cards. The guides say it is Foley White. Even the Library of Congress lists him as "Foley White". Here's a link to theirs (our 'ours', since we are the taxpayers).

http://tinyurl.com/3rot36


See that "H" on that sleeve... was it there in the photo, or added by an engraver or artist???

Foley White shows up in stats in 1905. By 1908 he is with Mobile of the Southern Association at the beginning of the season, then with 2 Texas League teams, Shreveport and Galveston. In 1909 he is with the Waco Navigators of the Texas League. 1910 has him with 3 teams; first the Brownsville Brownies of the Southwest Texas League, then back with Waco of the TL, and finally with Dallas of the TL. I'll stop with 1910, since by that time the card would have been printed.

Foley White did not play for Houston.


Carl White is with the Elsworth Worthies of the Central Kansas League in 1909, getting in 226 at bats and hitting .261 before he moves on to the HOUSTON Buffaloes of the Texas League, appearing in 20 games at the end of the season... he only hit .133 there. In 1910 Carl White is in the Kansas State League, playing for the Newton Railroaders, where he hit .279. Not much on Carl after that.

Carl White did play for Houston.

I've looked at my 1910 Spalding Guide, there is no photo for the Houston team, and the Dallas team photo has no 'White'... Can anyone here dig up a photo of a Dallas or Houston team that would depict 'White', so that a comparison could be made to see if that is Foley on that white border tobacco card, or is it Carl??? It could be Foley, and American Litho got the wrong team, maybe?

Don't bother to look in the red border Old Mill tobacco cards, T210, there is no 'White' card in series 3.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My 1909 and 1910 REACH BB Guides indicate that there were 3 guys named White in the Texas League.

1st.....a D. White (SS) for OKLAHOMA 1909
2nd....a White (C) for WACO 1909
3rd.....a White (CF) for HOUSTON 1909.....no initial is given for his 1st name.

The Houston (Texas Lge. Champs) team photo does not include White.

TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you, Ted.

I was beginning to think that folks at this vintage BASEBALL CARD forum cared more about lawsuits, slabbed cards, grading, GAI stuff, eBay stores and tactics, tobacco pouches, photos.... EVERYTHING other than cards. I care about that other stuff, but prefer posts about cards. And golly, if a post about T206 doesn't get someone's interest, then why are they here??

Anyway....

4 Whites show up in the Texas League in 1909.

Carl White, Houston Buffaloes
David White, Oklahoma City Indians
Foley White, Waco Navigators
William White, Oklahoma City Indians


So if that is Foley White on the T206 card, then the Houston listing is incorrect, the photo wrong.

If it is Carl White, we need to fix the catalogs.

And another possibility would be that the guy on the card isn't Carl or Foley.

Foley White was the best known of the 4 ballplayers above. That could be why a card of Carl was attributed as Foley. Or it could be that they intended a card of Foley, and attributed to the wrong team.

What we need are photos of the Texas League players.

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Posted By: Craig W

The player on the T206 card appears to be wearing a catchers mitt. Of the Whites that played in the Texas League from 1907 - 1910, Foley White was the only one that was a catcher, according to SABR. So, I'm inclined to believe it is Foley White on the card, but shown with the wrong team. Or perhaps he signed with Houston during an off-season, but then traded to another team before the season started, which could account for there not being a record for him with Houston. Anyways, it is an interesting discovery about The Monster.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...how a player on the most famous prewar set of all time may not be who we all thought it was for the past 100 years are very interesting to me. I would love to see photographic evidence to help here. I was going to agree with Frank that it wasn't Foley, but the catcher's mitt is persuasive evidence that it is....

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The catcher's mitt is significant... good catch!

Carl White, Houston Buffaloes played 2nd and OF
David White, Oklahoma City Indians played OF
Foley White, Waco Navigators was a catcher
William White, Oklahoma City Indians played short stop


I'd still like to see a photo of Foley. And maybe Carl, too.

But the art folks could easily add that 'H' onto his sleeve, and label him with Houston, a team for which he never played...


We still need a photo!!

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Great post, Frank!! There are those who appreciate actual card posts

Tim

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Posted By: Craig W

Hi Frank,

I was a catcher in little league, so I tend to notice the catcher's mitts on vintage cards. Can't figure out how they ever held onto a pitch with those padded, non-hinged, bulky things!

I've run several web searches this evening and haven't come up with any images of Foley or the Houston team. About all I've found is the info in SABR:

http://minors.sabrwebs.com/cgi-bin/player.php?milbID=white-001fol

Foley did play for several Texas League teams in a few short years, so perhaps the artist just picked the wrong one???

And I apologize for not responding to your post earlier, but this evening was the first time I had a chance to do any research since seeing it this morning. I do enjoy this sort of thing and appreciate you posting it

Best Regards,
Craig

Edited to add: Frank, did your info also come from SABR? It's possible that they have him listed with the wrong team. We may never know unless someone can come up with some newspaper or similar info from 1907-10.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Frank W.,

Great research. Based on the evidence so far, my guess is that the T206 subject is Foley White and that the team designation is in error and should be Waco. As a further point of interest, note the similarities in uniform design and color between White and Thebo of Waco.

Scot

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Posted By: Craig W

Hi Scot, Welcome back and hope you had a great vacation!

It certainly does look like the same uniforms on White & Thebo. And considering the similarities in the lithographs, I'd further guess they were done by the same artist. Here's the images side by side (credit vintagecardtraders.com):

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ted, Paul, Tim, Craig, and Scot...

Thanks. I was feeling lonely.

This may well be like Ellam, Nashville. His T206 card says Nashville. He was with Birmingham from 1909 through the end of 1915. His first year at Nashville was 1916... now how could American Litho anticipate that???


The line for White, Waco at the SABR site (Wow, what a resource!! I'm going to renew membership!!), anyway, it is the same info in my 1910 Spalding Record, which covers the 1909 season. I've always been partial to the red Records, instead of the yellow Guides. The Guides have more pictures, but the Records have more complete statistics.

The similarity in Thebo's uniform is an interesting observation... artist might have missed the red sleeves. Thebo was Waco's center fielder in 1909.

In the Spalding Record, it shows White, Waco hitting .207 in 80 games. In the fielding section, under catchers, the listing is for "White, Waco - Houston" and shows him catching 33 games. I'd never noticed that before. I don't see a White, Waco at any other positions in the fielding sections. I do see Carl White in center field for 20 games for Houston. I'm sure that's Carl in that entry, can't convert a catcher into a center fielder in Texas, unless the fellow goes on to get 3000 hits in the majors. (Sorry for the digression, I just thought Biggio was a wonderful player from day one.) 80 - 33 = 47, I wonder what happened those other 47 games. Maybe he caught 47 with Waco then 33 with Houston.

I've emailed a library in Waco to try to dig up some info. I'll post anything I receive that is helpful.

I'm starting to think that Foley White is on that card, he started the season with Waco, and went to Houston at the end of the 1909 season when the photos and info were being accumulated for American Litho. Foley left Houston after that 1909 season. Shoot, he was with 3 teams in 1908, 3 in 1910... makes sense he couldn't stay with only one in 1909. So maybe the SABR site needs to be amended to show him with Houston for the end of 1909, IF we can dig up info to corroborate that Houston play.

We still need a photo that depicts Foley White.

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Posted By: Craig W

Hmmm ... looks like Foley caught in 80 games for Waco in 1909, but only batted .207. It appears that William Powell went from Fort Worth to Waco during the 09 season. Between the two teams, he batted .242 in 125 games. Oh, and Powell was a catcher!

Perhaps Foley wasn't producing enough so Waco got Powell from Fort Worth and sent Foley on to Houston???

Ok, I'm off to bed. Looking forward to seeing where this investigation leads

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Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Frank - Great topic and fun to follow. This does beat some of the usual rantings of late although those can also be entertaining.

With the number of teams Foley played with during that time, it would be difficult even for him to identify which team is depicted on the card if he were around to ask.

RC

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Sorry, guys, I'm not seeing the similarities. The color is roughly the same, but other than that everything I notice is different.

Collar style: White has a spread collar; Thebo's looks more like the rim of a bowl.
Placket length (the part that buttons on the front, for those of you who don't live with a seamstress): Thebo's goes much further down.
Number of buttons on placket: White has four; Thebo shows only four, but there's one hidden by his arm.
Belt width: It's hard to see White's, but if it were as wide as Thebo's it would likely show up.
Outer sleeve length: White's are longer
Inner sleeve length: White's are longer (OK, these two might be a question of fit rather than style)
Cap: Hard to tell because White's is so dark, but the proportions look different (bigger bill, less of a beanie shape).

Just stirring the pot,

Bill

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Posted By: T206Collector

1. Was Burdick the first guy to identify "White, Houston" as "Foley"?


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Posted By: Matt

I agree with Bill - I don't see any convincing evidence, based on the painting of those uniforms, to assume both players played for the same team.

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Posted By: Richard

Is it just my eyes, or is there a 'T' on White's cap?

(No idea how this helps the cause!)


Regards,

Richard.

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Posted By: Darren

Cool topic and I believe an important one at that.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I should've started a thread a couple weeks back when i noticed and it sort of got buried in another thread but the card thats labeled as Lucky Wright is actually a 1903 picture of Gene Wright,a pitcher from Cleveland. Don't have the guide to see if its really him or not but the picture definitely isnt Lucky Wright who was a 1909 pitcher for Cleveland also,but was also a redhead.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Frank,
Great thread.... I'm sorry I don't have time to help you research, but your efforts are appreciated. Be well Brian

PS John, interesting? Maybe the board can work on 2 at one time.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Scot Reader

John,

Very interesting. I just checked out Lucky's bio and it says that his nickname (other than "Lucky") was "William the Red." Do you have a copy of the 1903 photo of Gene that you can post, or know where to find one?

Scot

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Posted By: john/z28jd

This is a scan of Wright,owned by Max Weder

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1212807475/Re-+Can+anyone+tell+me+a+player+that+only+has+one+car d++and+it%27s+issue--

along with a scan of the wright t206 from Trae's site



http://www.flickr.com/photos/traeregan/1411132932/

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Posted By: Scot Reader

John, I'm convinced. I'll never look at a T206 Wright quite the same. Scot

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Posted By: T206Collector

Who told us it was Lucky Wright in the first place?

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Paul,

I'm not sure you can fault the checklister. It seems that it was Lucky Wright who played for Indy in 1909 (Gene having apparently retired from baseball years earlier). If that's the case, it's really an ATC error--not a checklisting error.

Of course, that doesn't answer your great question about who the "original" T206 checklister was ....

Scot

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Posted By: Art M.

Very interesting thread!

I seem to remember that late in the 1930's someone first listed the T-206 card checklist but cannot find that information right now.
In 1963 Frank Nagy did publish a checklist of the T-206 cards:

Michigan collector Frank Nagy, writing in the hobby publication The Sport Hobbyist, publishes his checklist for the T-206 set. The cards are laid out with Major Leaguers first, then Minor Leaguers, and finally the Southern League players. A listing for Sweeney, Boston, with plain white uniform is included. Nagy also listed 19 different backs for the T-206 cards. The three additional backs were Coupon (known now as T-213), Red Cross (known now as T-215), and Hustler Cigarettes. The Hustler brand has never been verified with a baseball subject front.

In January 1966, Richard S. Egan publishes his book T-206 Cigarette Baseball Cards, Part One, Baseball Series, White Borders 1909-1910. Mr. Egan listed the cards by team in alphabetical order, Major Leaguers first, then Minor Leaguers, and finally the Southern Leaguers. Known as “Egan’s List”, this checklist is generally adopted as the official T-206 checklist. Egan listed the correct 16 back types and noted that a red printed Hindu had been seen. He makes reference to the existence of Piedmont factory 42 back; but states this has not been verified. There is no mention of the Lenox back with brown printing. Egan discusses the mysterious Hustler cigarettes back, but indicates this has not been verified. Richard Egan told me personally a few years ago that he never owned or saw a T-206 with Hustler brand back.

Previously (2-3 years ago maybe?) there was a thread regarding the three T-206 cards picturing Howie Camnitz. I believe that a document was uncovered that stated Howie Camnitz would not participate in the American Tobacco company issue unless his younger brother Harry Camnitz was included. There is a strong probability that one of the three Howie Camnitz cards is supposed to be Harry Camnitz.

Art M.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Art,

Fascinating. Any ideas who might have the Camnitz document? Any idea which of the poses might be Harry? (I seem to remember a previous thread in which someone indicated that they thought the "arms at side" pose might be Harry.)

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Ditto....for Art M's and Scot R's comment regarding "Harry" Camnitz possibly depicted in the T206 set.

The 1st series pose (arms folded) I have seen in a Pittsburg Team photo which identified Camnitz as Howard.

Furthermore, Harry did not become a Major Leaguer till 1909 (after the T206 1st series cards were released).

The (hands above head) pose, in the 460 series, looks more like Howard; therefore, if it is true that one of 2
Camnitz cards in the 460 series is Harry....then it has to be the one with the Arms at Side pose.

A 1909 Pittsburgh Team (panoramic) photo shows Harry and you can differentiate them.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st......I have taken a personal interest in researching SAMUEL Howard Camnitz and Henry RICHARDSON Camnitz. Since my 2nd cousin
is from Kentucky (same area as both Camnitz) and my 2nd cousin's name is SAMUEL RICHARDSON. It could just be a mere coincidence;
or, perhaps there is a family connection. I'm still checking it out.

Anyhow....here's the LINK to the panoramic 1909 Pittsburgh Team photo I noted in the above post depicting Howie and Harry Camnitz.
Slide down to the 21st photo....Howie is 4th from the left and Harry is 8th from the right.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75607&page=2


TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

So Harry Camnitz is the guy that is standing back a bit, with his shoulders behind the guys to each side... Maybe Harry Camnitz is in T206. A time or two I'd wondered why Howie would have 3 cards.

As for Wright, I'm not sold on the idea, 100%, that the guy in the Sporting Life is Eugene Wright, even though that is what is says underneath. Again, what we need is a team photo of the day.

Ted, surely you have a team panorama photo of the 1909 Houston Buffaloes. You're bound to have one, if you dig deep into your stuff!!!


Great stuff on Camnitz, White and Wright. White might be right after all, just not sure yet. But the list might need to be corrected a bit for Wright and one of the Camnitz cards. We need documentation and a team photo.


Frank.

[RCMcKenzie]

I was looking around on eBay and found this box score and article on the Houston Buffaloes. It shows a "White" in the line-up with a c. f next to his name, but it is smudged. The article talks about a "Foley", I think in centerfield.

I've mused about this in other threads in the past, while looking for those threads, I found this one.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is the link to the ebay auction containing the newspaper clipping from presumably a St. Louis newspaper in 1909.

This box score and related run-down of the game is the first time I have seen Foley White on Houston. He is not listed in Baseball_Reference on Houston.

This information lines up with what TedZ posted about a centerfielder named White on Houston in 1909.

It does not explain why the person pictured in the T206 known as "Foley White" Houston or "White, Houston" is wearing a catcher's glove. Maybe White played center and catcher like Craig Biggio.

www.ebay.com/itm/352684159332