Looking for help identifying these three cards:

[realbigfatdog]

I purchased these three cards on eBay recently and I'm having some difficulty identifying the set they are from. The seller had them listed as E121, hand cut from an advertising sheet. He had several for sale, I bought the three Yankees he had. They are Frank Baker, Wally Pipp, and Carl Mays (misspelled May on card). While doing some research, first on Facebook (Tobacco Row), then on a few older threads here on net54, I found that they may be from the 1921 Koester's Bread set D383, or possibly from the 1922 W575-1 strip cards set. But I'm still a little confused. None of the threads mention the Mays card with the misspelling. Also, I have no idea how thick the card stock should be on either set. Help!!!

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[realbigfatdog]

Aaaaaaand, my pictures will not upload. Grrrrrrrr......

[swarmee]

Auction link?

[realbigfatdog]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/F56-J-Frank...vip=true&rt=nc

https://www.ebay.com/itm/F53-Walter-...vip=true&rt=nc

https://www.ebay.com/itm/F52-Carl-Ma...vip=true&rt=nc

Let's see if this works. These are the auction listings.

[quitcrab]

They are either W575 or Koester bread. Koester bread card stock is thicker than W575.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by quitcrab

They are either W575 or Koester bread. Koester bread card stock is thicker than W575.

Whichever they are, they are horribly trimmed and most likely would/should only get an "Authentic" grade, at best. Calling these "Poor" is an unbelievable compliment, in my opinion! Both issues are supposed to measure around 2" X 3-1/4", and I doubt any of these three are even close.

Also, if these are not Koester bread cards, they are possibly W575-1 cards, not simply W575 cards. There is a W575-2 version issued in 1922 that is decidedly and easily identifiable as different than W575-1 cards. (Which is actually a good question for another thread as to why these two so different sets of cards, issued in two different years, would be be put under the same W575 designation.)

As an earlier poster pointed out, the W575-1 cards are supposed to be on thinner stock than the Koester Bread cards. Is the the thickness on all three of these cards the same? If so, the May(s) card may help to identify the correct issue all three of these are from.

In the Standard Catalog I have access to here at work (2009 version) the checklists for the 1921 E121 and W575-1 cards both include listings for Mays cards with his name spelled correctly and incorrectly on different versions. For Koester Bread cards, the checklist only includes a listing for a single version of the Mays card with his name spelled correctly. Assuming the Standard Catalog checklists are accurate, the fact that your card is the incorrectly spelled version of Mays would seem to indicate it is a W575-1 card and not a Koester Bread card. And if the thickness of all three cards are exactly the same, I would assume the other two cards are then W575-1s also. That is a huge difference in the value of these cards if that is the case, and not one in your favor!

[realbigfatdog]

Thank you! I was only looking to correctly identify them, the monetary value is really not important to me. They are strictly for my own personal collection (I collect Yankees team sets), so I merely wanted to know what I had. I didn't pay all that much for them (about $65 combined), so no real worries there. The original seller had them listed as E121, but I was pretty sure that was incorrect. I also figured they probably were not Koester's cards since there were only players from the Giants and Yanks produced that year, and the seller had similar cards from other teams (like the Dodgers' Zack Wheat). That led me to believe that they were most likely W575-1's since they were strip cards and these are obviously cut (badly). I just couldn't find a checklist and the May(s) card had ne perplexed, as well. Thank you for digging for me, Bob. I really appreciate it.

[BobC]

I'm glad you didn't pay that much for them then. Just out of curiosity how thin do they feel to you? I have examples of both cards but, all the ones I have were graded and you literally can't tell the difference between the W575-1s and Koester cards in holders. I didn't feel like breaking them out just to compare the thickness of the two issues.

Are the ones you have, which are most likley W575-1s then, really paper thin-like or is there still some thickness and rigidity to them? If possible, do you have any other cards you would say the thickness is comparable to? Trying to pick up a little knowledge myself as I don't normally come across dealers local to me that have raw examples of both types of cards that I could just handle to make a comparison with. LOL

Thanks, and glad you're happy to add them to your collection.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BobC

I'm glad you didn't pay that much for them then. Just out of curiosity how thin do they feel to you? I have examples of both cards but, all the ones I have were graded and you literally can't tell the difference between the W575-1s and Koester cards in holders. I didn't feel like breaking them out just to compare the thickness of the two issues.

Are the ones you have, which are most likley W575-1s then, really paper thin-like or is there still some thickness and rigidity to them? If possible, do you have any other cards you would say the thickness is comparable to? Trying to pick up a little knowledge myself as I don't normally come across dealers local to me that have raw examples of both types of cards that I could just handle to make a comparison with. LOL

Thanks, and glad you're happy to add them to your collection.

Great info and thanks for helping.,
The W575-1s in my collection aren't really paper thin. They aren't as thick as E121 but they aren't thin like T213-1 either. That is the way all of them I have handled have been..

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Leon

Great info and thanks for helping.,
The W575-1s in my collection aren't really paper thin. They aren't as thick as E121 but they aren't thin like T213-1 either. That is the way all of them I have handled have been..

Thanks Leon, I assumed they weren't paper thin, just never had a chance to hold a raw version of both in hand at the same to to really compare. What I've always felt/seen was that the W575-1s were more likely than not to be hand cut or trimmed when you see them, while an authentic Koester Bread card would normally be the listed dimensions of about 2" X 3-1/4". Listed as a "W" card, the W575-1s are considered "strip" cards but, not really sure if they came in strips/sheets for people to cut up. If so, that would definitely make sense for all the badly cut trimmed ones you normally see.

In the OP's case, he's just fortunate to have had the Mays spelling error card in the trio he acquired. Since Koester specifically only chose the Giant/Yankee players to be on the cards they distributed, you assume they would have paid attention to which cards they selected to give away, and obviously not made the mistake of handing out Mays cards with his last name misspelled. Without that Mays error card, it would not be so easy to determine if his cards were W575-1s or Koester Bread cards otherwise.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BobC

Thanks Leon, I assumed they weren't paper thin, just never had a chance to hold a raw version of both in hand at the same to to really compare. What I've always felt/seen was that the W575-1s were more likely than not to be hand cut or trimmed when you see them, while an authentic Koester Bread card would normally be the listed dimensions of about 2" X 3-1/4". Listed as a "W" card, the W575-1s are considered "strip" cards but, not really sure if they came in strips/sheets for people to cut up. If so, that would definitely make sense for all the badly cut trimmed ones you normally see.

In the OP's case, he's just fortunate to have had the Mays spelling error card in the trio he acquired. Since Koester specifically only chose the Giant/Yankee players to be on the cards they distributed, you assume they would have paid attention to which cards they selected to give away, and obviously not made the mistake of handing out Mays cards with his last name misspelled. Without that Mays error card, it would not be so easy to determine if his cards were W575-1s or Koester Bread cards otherwise.

Hi Bob
Not sure you saw these before? These are W575-1s and are blank backed. These weren't distributed as strips as can be seen by the packaging.They are all exactly the same size, though the scan of 9 is disproportionate, and were not hand cut. I can't say for sure about any others. I suspect they were issued different ways but lean towards packaging like this. SGC graded them and told me they were not hand cut in their opinion. They put handcut on the flip and later said to send them back to revisit the designation. I haven't done it yet. But they acknowledged they are not hand cut. In hand, and holding the whole stack, they are spot on, on size in relation to each other. They fit in the cellophane pack perfectly.

[BobC]

Leon,

Those look to be in really nice shape. Are the backs of all of them with some type of advertising, or just blank like they normally would be? Since those are so nice, if they are all for that specific advertiser you have shown the back for, I wonder if the factory/printer that produced them was approached to prepare them like that and therefore the nice cut on the cards. If so, you could have some really unique, uncatalogued cards there. Very nice in any instance!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BobC

Leon,
Those look to be in really nice shape. Are the backs of all of them with some type of advertising, or just blank like they normally would be? Since those are so nice, if they are all for that specific advertiser you have shown the back for, I wonder if the factory/printer that produced them was approached to prepare them like that and therefore the nice cut on the cards. If so, you could have some really unique, uncatalogued cards there. Very nice in any instance!

They are blank back cards.

[Cozumeleno]

Looks like I'm a couple of months late to this party but I can give a little more information on these. I spoke with the seller beforehand and bought four of his - the Zack Wheat, Eddie Collins, Dickie Kerr, and Ivey Wingo.

These are definitely not Koester's since the players come from a variety of teams. In comparing them to some of my cards, the stock is virtually identical to W575-1s I have. They are not paper thin but are, as Leon mentioned, noticeably thinner than the E121s.

I believe they are from an advertising poster for two reasons. First, the seller told me he has actually seen the poster in an auction before. The description from the auction he saw listed it as a gum advertising poster but he couldn't recall the name. He THINKS it began with a 'W' but it was not Wrigleys. So if anyone can offer some other gum company names from that period, please let me know. That would aid in searches for trying to find a picture of the poster. According to him, he got these from the collection of an older gentleman's family after he stopped collecting in the 1960s.

Second, some of the cards had large black overprint letters on them, including the Collins and Wingo I purchased, similar to the overprinted N284 Buchners. He had two other cards with parts of the lettering as well and some had traces of the lettering on the backs (which are blank), meaning they were laid on top of each other while still a little wet. If they are from a poster, what it said remains a mystery. However, I believe it could be some iteration of the "Base Ball Stars of the American and National Leagues," which is what was printed on the backs of the E121s. I've got more detail I could get into with that if anyone cares but I've blabbed long enough as it is.

I've scanned in my cards below. Also attached are the other two that had letters but that I did not pursue - Strunk and Judge. If anyone has more details or information/thoughts, I would love to hear.

Finally, to the original poster, check the backs of your cards. If you have any letters showing from wet ink, please let me know. That could aid in determining the phrase that was overprinted.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Looks like I'm a couple of months late to this party but I can give a little more information on these. I spoke with the seller beforehand and bought four of his - the Zack Wheat, Eddie Collins, Dickie Kerr, and Ivey Wingo.

These are definitely not Koester's since the players come from a variety of teams. In comparing them to some of my cards, the stock is virtually identical to W575-1s I have. They are not paper thin but are, as Leon mentioned, noticeably thinner than the E121s.

I believe they are from an advertising poster for two reasons. First, the seller told me he has actually seen the poster in an auction before. The description from the auction he saw listed it as a gum advertising poster but he couldn't recall the name. He THINKS it began with a 'W' but it was not Wrigleys. So if anyone can offer some other gum company names from that period, please let me know. That would aid in searches for trying to find a picture of the poster. According to him, he got these from the collection of an older gentleman's family after he stopped collecting in the 1960s.

Second, some of the cards had large black overprint letters on them, including the Collins and Wingo I purchased, similar to the overprinted N284 Buchners. He had two other cards with parts of the lettering as well and some had traces of the lettering on the backs (which are blank), meaning they were laid on top of each other while still a little wet. If they are from a poster, what it said remains a mystery. However, I believe it could be some iteration of the "Base Ball Stars of the American and National Leagues," which is what was printed on the backs of the E121s. I've got more detail I could get into with that if anyone cares but I've blabbed long enough as it is.

I've scanned in my cards below. Also attached are the other two that had letters but that I did not pursue - Strunk and Judge. If anyone has more details or information/thoughts, I would love to hear.

Finally, to the original poster, check the backs of your cards. If you have any letters showing from wet ink, please let me know. That could aid in determining the phrase that was overprinted.

Not sure I have seen those types before but if I had to guess I would say they are cut from an ad poster.