Some rare and expensive bakery goodies......

[Brian Van Horn]

There are 34 of them on eBay so I don't think this is really outing an auction. It is a little hard to miss 34:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1917-D-UNC-M...item3ce70ca0e5

[ValKehl]

I'll be surprised if any of these cards sell at the asking prices, or anything close thereto. The 1921 Herpolsheimer cards, of which only 1 card is known of each, don't fetch anywhere near the prices the eBay seller is asking for these Merchants Bakery cards.
Val

[nolemmings]

Reminds me of the guy who has the high-grade Uncle Jacks on ebay for ridiculous prices like this common Bill Hallahan for a meager $6500--they've been there a loooong time:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Uncle-J...item53d8d031fc

Of course, it's also real wise to flood the market with about three dozen of these at once--makes the buyers really feel like they're getting something scarce.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I'll be surprised if any of these cards sell at the asking prices, or anything close thereto. The 1921 Herpolsheimer cards, of which only 1 card is known of each, don't fetch anywhere near the prices the eBay seller is asking for these Merchants Bakery cards.
Val

Uh oh Val .... I saw a WaJo in there! Better start saving

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I'll be surprised if any of these cards sell at the asking prices, or anything close thereto. The 1921 Herpolsheimer cards, of which only 1 card is known of each, don't fetch anywhere near the prices the eBay seller is asking for these Merchants Bakery cards.
Val

OK. Here I go :

The 1921 Herpolsheimer's are fakes. 1916 is good. 1921 is bad.

I met the original owner at the Robert Morris show in one of the May shows in the late 1990s or early 2000s (2001 the latest) and saw the guy again at the Cleveland National. Although the date is fuzzy, the conversation is not.

I looked at the cards and asked the gentleman about the cards. He waived them off with his right hand above the plastic sheets and album they were in and stated, "They are not real." The prices scribbled on the back of the cards were the prices he was seeking on the cards. Not all of the cards had a price in pencil on the back.

The cards eventually ended up in the hands of a seller in Maryland who put them on eBay.

I feel so much better now. A good rant occasionally in the morning is as refreshing as a long walk .

[Leon]

The seller will either eventually lower those prices or have them as museum pieces forever. It's not like you could go for a set of them and there are only so many type collectors out here. I think I have handled most of them that were already known in the hobby (approx.5) and though they were lower grade they filled holes in type collections. I could see a few HOF collectors ponying up quite a bit but probably not close to the asking prices. Still, some pretty neat cards and goes hand in hand with the thread about what is truly scarce in the internet age. These Merchants cards barely make the grade now...though still cool cards.

[timn1]

Leon is right - there are only so many serious type card collectors wealthy enough to imagine paying those prices.

[paul]

I agree with Leon as well, but wouldn't be surprised if the Walter Johnson sold for close to the asking price.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think I have handled most of them that were already known in the hobby (approx.5) and though they were lower grade they filled holes in type collections.

Are there more where these 34 came from, or are we just around 39 known examples now? I may have to edit that other thread again.

[Brian Van Horn]

Well, on the Merchants Bakery, there is what Leon has and what is on eBay. I don't know if any prior to this listing got by Leon.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

OK. Here I go :

The 1921 Herpolsheimer's are fakes. 1916 is good. 1921 is bad.

I met the original owner at the Robert Morris show in one of the May shows in the late 1990s or early 2000s (2001 the latest) and saw the guy again at the Cleveland National. Although the date is fuzzy, the conversation is not.

I looked at the cards and asked the gentleman about the cards. He waived them off with his right hand above the plastic sheets and album they were in and stated, "They are not real." The prices scribbled on the back of the cards were the prices he was seeking on the cards. Not all of the cards had a price in pencil on the back.

The cards eventually ended up in the hands of a seller in Maryland who put them on eBay.

I feel so much better now. A good rant occasionally in the morning is as refreshing as a long walk .

Brian, I don't want to pick a fight but the guy you were talking to doesn't know what he is talking about, he may have thought them not real or fakes as the back had never been seen before.

I am looking at a Herpolsheimer's card as I am writing this and they 100% are on exactly the same paper as the other E121 like cards (Holsum, E121, Witmor, etc.) and the subjects are even consistent with the time-line of the Holsum Type 2 cards that has only become evident after years of me studying them. There were even subjects in that group whose images were not known on anything only to be found later on Holsum and Standard Biscuit cards.

The 1921 Herpolsheimer's cards are 100% real, have you ever examined one next to an original Holsum or E121 card? If you do there is no way to reproduce the paper and printing to make them exactly the same, there is always a way with fake cards to tell they were made later or at a different time. I was as skeptical as anyone when they first showed up but after examining the cards there is no way they are fake.

[Brian Van Horn]

Rhett,

There is no fight and no fight is intended. The guy stated they are not real. The prices on the backs were what he was seeking. They ended up in the hands of a guy from Maryland who put them on eBay. If the owner says they are not real, they are not real. Do I know if the guy had printing experience? No. Still, he was the owner and I can't get around his honesty. The cards are fakes.

The same paper is not an argument. Coming up with the same paper would not be difficult. Having knowledge of the cards and poses involved would take a little more research, but not impossible. Still these arguments are only peripheral. The guy did know what he was talking about when we spoke. With the exception of a poorly done Cobb on eBay a few years ago, no other examples have been found. Why? It's possible, just possible, the guy I spoke with may have only made one run of the cards. Here is a harder to find pose from the Standard Biscuit set that was in the grouping of the Herpolsheimers. The fact that it is harder to find, proves nothing, but if you guys want to use it as an example from this fake grouping, feel free:

[Leon]

In my opinion the 1921 Herpolsheimers are 100% real.. There is no doubt in my mind about it.

[rhettyeakley]

Brian, you never actually answered my question about actually looking at the cards closely and not from a distance in an album a decade ago. Did the guy you spoke to say he printed them himself or something? why was he so sure they are fake?

About the paper being easy to reproduce is silly, there is no way to match cardstock from 1921 perfectly and then after that duplicating the printing process perfectly. I think you are putting too much stock into the words of this person without actually looking at the cards themselves. Other than his words why are you so sure they are fake?

[4815162342]

I cast my vote for this thread as Funniest Thread of the Year.

[Leon]

Rhett, Michael is just saying he doesn't own any. It's not that unique of a way of saying it, actually. These aren't fake, we all know it. Don't beat yourself up.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

Rhett, Michael is just saying he doesn't own any. It's not that unique of a way of saying it, actually. These aren't fake, we all know it. Don't beat yourself up.

Not beating myself up over it I just don't understand the "non-consensus" on the subject. I actually find this thread pretty humorous. The "crazy pills" comment is a Zoolander reference (in case anybody actually watched that movie) and am 100% not upset about anything (if that is how it is coming across).

[rhettyeakley]

Just for fun...

without looking up subjects or anything else pick the Herpolsheimer's (sorry for size but I wanted them to be somewhat big)...

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Just for fun...

without looking up subjects or anything else pick the Herpolsheimer's (sorry for size but I wanted them to be somewhat big)...

Just for fun I'll guess the Charles Deal? 25% chance

I know almost nothing about these and have no dog in the fight, but it was mentioned as a possible possibility - could the 1921 Herps have been blank backs originally (printed along w/the other M101 blank backs so the cards are authentic, correct paper, etc) with the backs printed? Again, I might've missed a post explaining why its 100% not possible, but is it even a 1% possible explanation as to why Brian's seller waved them off as being fakes?

Ok, feel free to call me a dumbass now