Opinion on Altered Cards

[HerbK]

Hey Guys,

Quick question regarding altered cards. I'm sure there are plenty of threads which discuss altered cards, but what is the concensus here on the "value" of graded altered cards in terms of the percentage of value...?

The logic in me keeps me from buying altered cards thinking that they might not appreciate in value at the same rate as a numerically graded card - nevermind being harder to sell. However, the collector in me realizes there are plenty of graded altered cards (trimmed for example), that look much nicer than unaltered cards and for much less money.

What are your thoughts on this as it relates to the value of the cards.

Herb.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just my opinion. I knowingly avoid them like the plague. "Knowingly" you ask? If you collect in this hobby for a long time and buy ungraded cards there is a likelihood you will get an altered card eventually. I have purchased a few with the lesson after the fact.

The cards in my opinion are worth, at best, only pennies on the dollar and only to someone who is desperate enough for an example. Just be upfront with the person.

[pcoz]

I agree with Brian. No question many are much nicer than numerically graded cards aesthetically. But, it's an item that's been tampered with. Not to sound like a banana, but although a beater 1 will show its wear from that period, I'd much rather have that card with its integrity still in place than one that's had lipstick on a pig. Just my thoughts.

[Centauri]

I don't want altered cards in my collection, but in monitoring sales on Ebay, there is a market. If you really want that nice Babe Ruth, but don't have the 2000 it takes to buy one unaltered, maybe an authentic grade is a decent option. But I would expect a sharp discount.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Just my opinion. I knowingly avoid them like the plague. "Knowingly" you ask? If you collect in this hobby for a long time and buy ungraded cards there is a likelihood you will get an altered card eventually. I have purchased a few with the lesson after the fact.

The cards in my opinion are worth, at best, only pennies on the dollar and only to someone who is desperate enough for an example. Just be upfront with the person.

There is probably a better chance if you buy graded cards.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is probably a better chance if you buy graded cards.

Pretty broad statement.

I think it depends on the sort of card and grade.
I'd be very surprised if many of the VG/VG-EX cards are altered. Prewar with Higher grades or more expensive postwar in realy high grade It's probably more likely. (And the percentage will depend on what each person considers altered - Lets not get into that again so soon)

My collection has a few altered cards. Most are obvious, but aren't bad looking. I also have some that aren't altered, but wouldn't get a number grade. Either because of an odd cut, or being undersize. Since nearly everyone considers undersize as "trimmed" rather than looking at what a factory edge looks like compared to one cut later I'm ok with tpg rejecting them.

Steve B

[iwantitiwinit]

In my opinion they are of no value and I'd never buy one. Why buy something that is less than complete, doesn't make sense to me. Though we are all simply buying cardboard to start with.

[yanksfan09]

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of trimmed or altered cards. However, I'll buy a trimmed card sometimes if it's advertised/graded as such. If it looks nice and I can get it at a huge discount that's fine with me. All things being equal I'll take the more worn un-tampered with card over the "nicer" trimmed card any day of the week but sometimes you can get some great cards that you may not otherwise be able to reasonably afford.

I always found it weird that alterations and restorations are accepted so widely in the antique and painting markets.... (fixing chips, tears, recoloring, cleaning etc...) and yet we card collectors act like it's the end of the world if a card or piece of memorabilia is touched up at all in any way.

Cards are just that cardboard, thin paper stock. I'd say it stands to reason that over time say in another 100 or more years, it may become that the majority of high end pre-war cards have to go through some type of cleaning or restoration process just to stop from degrading into pieces. Just climate and general aging I would think would cause the fibers and colors to break down over time. Same with signed baseballs. Most balls signed by Babe Ruth or guys from that era or earlier are getting very hard to read, or the signatures have already completely faded away. With baseballs I'd think some steps may have to be taken other than proper storage to keep the signatures visible.

[x2drich2000]

To me it really depends on the set. I would not want an altered T206/T205 in my personal collection since they are so common, but I have multiple trimmed E92 Nadjas simply due to the fact that finding any card is difficult enough. For example, this young I believe is 1 of only 3 graded regardless of condition or company.



DJ

[steve B]

On the original question, I think some altered cards will do better long term than some unaltered cards.

I think some trimmed cards will appreciate more than cards that are in really bad condition. To me the card and price have to be taken together. If the price is reasonable for the card any condition is ok. For the same price, I might take a great looking "A" over an awful "1" .
The worst thing about trimming when it's done to deceive is that the card usually begins as a fairly nice card, and the trimming essentially ruins it.

Some people place more value on originality. ( And I agree. )
But there are some people who would value aesthetic appeal more.

One of the things I find puzzling in most hobbies, but especially in cards is that most people want originality and condition. But then also place a large value on small matters of the aesthetics. Take a few cards.

Trimmed, but centered and uncreased - Very nice looking but altered
Original but worn, creases, writing, -Original but maybe a bit ugly
Original , centered, nice corners, no issues at all.
Original, but off center by a lot, Almost perfect corners.

The first is properly reduced in price usually by a lot
The second is also not worth as much as a nicer card.
The third will get a good grade, and even ungraded will be easy to sell for a very good price.
The fourth? Despite being in a better state of preservation than the third will sell for much less and technically grade lower.

Sort of an odd dual valuation, where originality beats aesthetics up to a point then aesthetics takes over.
Nothing wrong with it at all, just something I find a bit odd.
I should have studied more psychology, that sort of thing fascinates me, especially since I don't typically think like that.

Steve B

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

The value of altered cards is very subjective. I tend to go after t206 cards with back damage because it allows me to acquire cards with sharper fronts than I could otherwise afford.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is probably a better chance if you buy graded cards.

That is a sad, but true commentary on the third party graders.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

To me it really depends on the set. I would not want an altered T206/T205 in my personal collection since they are so common, but I have multiple trimmed E92 Nadjas simply due to the fact that finding any card is difficult enough. For example, this young I believe is 1 of only 3 graded regardless of condition or company.



DJ

+1--I think this really hits the nail on the head. If it is an extremely rare, significant card, you may not have many chances to own an example.

Regards,

Larry