Will we ever again see the likes of these true-blue Power Hitters ?

[tedzan]

You can call me a sentimental "traditionalist", or whatever. So, tell me what is the probability that BB will see power sluggers like these guys hitting near 600-foot drives......
without the use of "performance enhancing drugs" ? ?

Ruth's HR (right-centerfield) would have travelled 600 ft into River Avenue if the old Scoreboard was not there.

Mantle's monster HR hit the right-field roof facade 390 ft away....and, was projected that it would have travelled more than 600 ft (had it cleared Yankee Stadium).






TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nobody ever accused Kingman of taking PED, did they?

[DerekMichael]

I loathe the Marlins, but I would kill for Giancarlo Stanton. That is true power!

Derek

[ErikV]

Hi Ted,

Sad commentary, but true. While there are players, (ie Yasiel Puig)
who are power hitters, and who could probably legitimately hit a 600
foot homerun, we have arrived at the day and age when there will
always be those who look at these achievements with a raised eyebrow.
Just last season Jack Clark accused Albert Pujols of using PED's. Indeed
the days of Ruth, Mantle and Luzinski not being questioned about their
abilities/achievements are long behind us.

As advanced and technological savvy as we are in 2014, it is a sad
truth that even something as enjoyable as watching professional sports
has been tarnished. I guess this is what we deserve as a society who
is flip about PED use and votes to legalize pot.

I suppose that's why there are those of us who enjoy collecting vintage
cards. I think to some degree we are trying to connect to a more
innocent time when the difference between right and wrong wasn't so
hazy.

ErikV

[Section103]

Why not? Players and the general population are bigger and stronger now than they were then (with or without PEDs).

[ullmandds]

Yes...I agree!!!

Originally Posted by Section103

Why not? Players and the general population are bigger and stronger now than they were then (with or without PEDs).

[z28jd]

Since PEDs were brought up, does anyone else wonder how every other major sport has almost no issues compared to MLB, yet MLB is the one that gets killed because they tried to clean up the sport? Why is it that people have no problem watching football and all these crazy things happen with huge humans doing ridiculous things and NO ONE cares. No one in their right mind can believe the NFL cracks down on players with the size they are and punishment they take.

It's mind-boggling to me that baseball does the most against PEDs, yet they also get killed the most. Every off-season, the talk is PEDs for the last ten years or so.

It's like the other three major sports all said, thanks for taking the heat MLB, we will be over here in the corner ignoring everything, occasionally finding one guy so it looks like we are doing something.

I never understood how the sport that does more than the other three major sports combined, gets the black eye.

[D. Bergin]

Put Mickey Mantle in today's game without PED's and he would never be able to escape the cloud. He could not drink, keep himself healthier, benefit from modern surgery, hit 750 HR's and might never sniff the Hall of Fame even if he stayed clean as a whistle.

We see guys like Chris Davis who have never been implicated in anything answering questions about PEDs every day. What makes anybody think Mantle would be any different?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Put Mickey Mantle in today's game without PED's and he would never be able to escape the cloud. He could not drink, keep himself healthier, benefit from modern surgery, hit 750 HR's and might never sniff the Hall of Fame even if he stayed clean as a whistle.

We see guys like Chris Davis who have never been implicated in anything answering questions about PEDs every day. What makes anybody think Mantle would be any different?

And who knows which of these guys would have stayed clean? It's nice to romanticize athletes of the past as having more character, but at least some of that is nostalgia bias.

[packs]

I never saw anyone hit a baseball further or harder than Jim Thome.

[GoldenAge50s]

EricV---

Very well stated & pretty much mirrors my feelings on the subject.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ErikV

Hi Ted,

Sad commentary, but true. While there are players, (ie Yasiel Puig)
who are power hitters, and who could probably legitimately hit a 600
foot homerun, we have arrived at the day and age when there will
always be those who look at these achievements with a raised eyebrow.
Just last season Jack Clark accused Albert Pujols of using PED's. Indeed
the days of Ruth, Mantle and Luzinski not being questioned about their
abilities/achievements are long behind us.

As advanced and technological savvy as we are in 2014, it is a sad
truth that even something as enjoyable as watching professional sports
has been tarnished. I guess this is what we deserve as a society who
is flip about PED use and votes to legalize pot.

I suppose that's why there are those of us who enjoy collecting vintage
cards. I think to some degree we are trying to connect to a more
innocent time when the difference between right and wrong wasn't so
hazy.

ErikV

Well stated Erik

I grew up watching DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Mantle, Jackie Robinson, Stan Musial, etc. play the game....and YES, those were "innocent times."

They were really great years to be watching BB. I may be an old "dinosaur" now; but, I would not trade those years for anything.


T-Rex TED

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Since PEDs were brought up, does anyone else wonder how every other major sport has almost no issues compared to MLB, yet MLB is the one that gets killed because they tried to clean up the sport? Why is it that people have no problem watching football and all these crazy things happen with huge humans doing ridiculous things and NO ONE cares. No one in their right mind can believe the NFL cracks down on players with the size they are and punishment they take.

It's a couple things:

1) The NFL routinely busts guys and suspends them. It happens often enough that people are used to it and there's not a lot of drama surrounding it for the most part.

2) The NFL and its fans aren't as stats-driven as MLB and its fans. The magic numbers MEAN something to baseball fans. To football fans? Not so much. What's the record for receiving yards? Pass attempts? Sacks? Most fans don't know. They might know the yardage and TD records since Peyton set them this year but for the most part the records are unknown and not-cared-about. So PED usage that obliterates records, like in baseball, simply doesn't matter to the NFL fan.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

When it comes to tape-measure home runs, Willie Stargell was unrivaled.

[packs]

There have been a few NFL PED suspensions this year but I don't think it's had a huge effect. Most NFL suspensions are a result of violating the substance abuse policy. But they don't typically say what that substance was.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Tabe

It's a couple things:

1) The NFL routinely busts guys and suspends them. It happens often enough that people are used to it and there's not a lot of drama surrounding it for the most part.

2) The NFL and its fans aren't as stats-driven as MLB and its fans. The magic numbers MEAN something to baseball fans. To football fans? Not so much. What's the record for receiving yards? Pass attempts? Sacks? Most fans don't know. They might know the yardage and TD records since Peyton set them this year but for the most part the records are unknown and not-cared-about. So PED usage that obliterates records, like in baseball, simply doesn't matter to the NFL fan.

I know there are some guys that get busted in the NFL, but they obviously don't crack down on it, otherwise half the league would be suspended, which is why they probably don't do it. I may have just answered my own question there. I could look it up, but off-hand, I don't remember any NBA or NHL steroid suspensions.

The second part is probably correct, I just don't understand why baseball gets 99% of the PED attention between the four major sports. I would doubt they have half the users of football and no more than either of the other two leagues

[glchen]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Since PEDs were brought up, does anyone else wonder how every other major sport has almost no issues compared to MLB, yet MLB is the one that gets killed because they tried to clean up the sport? Why is it that people have no problem watching football and all these crazy things happen with huge humans doing ridiculous things and NO ONE cares. No one in their right mind can believe the NFL cracks down on players with the size they are and punishment they take.

It's mind-boggling to me that baseball does the most against PEDs, yet they also get killed the most. Every off-season, the talk is PEDs for the last ten years or so.

It's like the other three major sports all said, thanks for taking the heat MLB, we will be over here in the corner ignoring everything, occasionally finding one guy so it looks like we are doing something.

I never understood how the sport that does more than the other three major sports combined, gets the black eye.

I think it's multiple things.

First, as has been mentioned, numbers mean a lot more in baseball. Most everyone knows the season and career home run records. The home run chase by McGwire and Sosa was a huge deal where hoards of fans were watching and following each at bat. The only thing somewhat comparable in football are the touchdown and passing records (and rushing yards), but very few people were following Manning as he was breaking record. People congratulated him, but it wasn't front page news like the home run chase. So when fans find out that these hallowed records are being broken by "cheaters," it leads a much more raw feeling in people's mouths. "I was so excited when I was following the chase, and now I found out these guys were juiced...."

Second, and related to the previous one, I think the baseball Hall of Fame is the most respected out of all sports, especially because of its long history. Therefore, when fans think that players got in unfairly, they are more upset.

Another thing I think is due to the longevity and player contracts in baseball. You have huge guaranteed contracts in baseball. Baseball players can play until they are nearly forty, and make huge money for many of those years. If they gain those contracts by juicing, it simply seems unfair. They don't get paid for their suspension, but they still get paid plenty when the penalty is over. I think I read somewhere that said ARod is still guaranteed 63 million after his one year suspension is over. Other players like Mickey Cabrera and Johnny Peralta (sp?) were still given large free agent contracts immediately following a PED suspension. For football, the career is much shorter, and other than the signing bonus, the contract is usually not guaranteed. Football also seems like a much more "dangerous" sport, so most fans give them a pass as they feel they earned it due to the nature of their sport.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

When it comes to tape-measure home runs, Willie Stargell was unrivaled.

I would think Cecil Fielder and the aforementioned Dave Kingman would rival him.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ErikV

Hi Ted,

..... Indeed the days of Ruth, Mantle and Luzinski not being questioned about their abilities/achievements ..................

ErikV

I honestly have never seen these three names in the same sentence before.

Mantle and Luzinski maybe, but Ruth........Come on now!!

My apologies to all and my eternal gratitude to Pete.

[ullmandds]

Frank...are u feeling ok? you're spelling stinks today!!!!!

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

I loathe the Marlins, but I would kill for Giancarlo Stanton. That is true power!

Derek

Thats the guy i thought of

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Frank...are u feeling ok? you're spelling stinks today!!!!!

Im rubbin off on him

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think it's multiple things.

First, as has been mentioned, numbers mean a lot more in baseball. Most everyone knows the season and career home run records. The home run chase by McGwire and Sosa was a huge deal where hoards of fans were watching and following each at bat. The only thing somewhat comparable in football are the touchdown and passing records (and rushing yards), but very few people were following Manning as he was breaking record. People congratulated him, but it wasn't front page news like the home run chase. So when fans find out that these hallowed records are being broken by "cheaters," it leads a much more raw feeling in people's mouths. "I was so excited when I was following the chase, and now I found out these guys were juiced...."

Second, and related to the previous one, I think the baseball Hall of Fame is the most respected out of all sports, especially because of its long history. Therefore, when fans think that players got in unfairly, they are more upset.

Another thing I think is due to the longevity and player contracts in baseball. You have huge guaranteed contracts in baseball. Baseball players can play until they are nearly forty, and make huge money for many of those years. If they gain those contracts by juicing, it simply seems unfair. They don't get paid for their suspension, but they still get paid plenty when the penalty is over. I think I read somewhere that said ARod is still guaranteed 63 million after his one year suspension is over. Other players like Mickey Cabrera and Johnny Peralta (sp?) were still given large free agent contracts immediately following a PED suspension. For football, the career is much shorter, and other than the signing bonus, the contract is usually not guaranteed. Football also seems like a much more "dangerous" sport, so most fans give them a pass as they feel they earned it due to the nature of their sport.

Good answer, thanks. I don't watch much football, usually only when I'm forced to, no real interest in the sport. Watching it the other day was just sad. I think I saw about 15 guys leave the game injured between the two games and the announcers are so used to it, they just move on like nothing happened. I'm not sure what parent in their right mind would let their kid play football after watching how many guys leave with concussions. If I had a kid, I'd tell them, you want to play football, do it when you're 18 and old enough to know the consequences of multiple concussions. I would never start them down that path. Just a sad sport to watch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

I would think Cecil Fielder and the aforementioned Dave Kingman would rival him.

Yeah Cecil had some serious power. Reggie hit a few long ones in the day as well.

[GoldenAge50s]

Nobody has mentioned Frank Howard--he could launch 'em w/ ANYONE!

[tedzan]

Steroids use by NFL players has not been in the public domain. However, one notable incident made big news in 1992,
when Lyle Alzado died at a relatively young age.

His untimely death was attributed to heavy use of steroids.


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Nobody has mentioned Frank Howard--he could launch 'em w/ ANYONE!

I grew up in the DC area. They used to paint seats in the upper deck where he had hit them. He also hit some line drive homers that must have had the shortest elapsed time in history.

[Deertick]

Jose Canseco hit the longes.... oh. nevermind.

My dad says that the longest HR he ever saw was Richie Allen in 1964 or 65. A liner that he says the shortstop jumped after and cleared the scoreboard. He said if it wasn't the longest ever hit, it surely had to be the hardest.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by z28jd

It's like the other three major sports all said, thanks for taking the heat MLB, we will be over here in the corner ignoring everything, occasionally finding one guy so it looks like we are doing something.

I never understood how the sport that does more than the other three major sports combined, gets the black eye.

I'd give the MLB more props to what it was doing if it wasn't brought to this point kicking and screaming. Selig and the owners had their collective heads up their sand for years until their monopoly was threatened. While they may not have known all the players (no pun intended), they knew full well what was going on until they were "forced" to do something about it. A-Rod is a liar and a cheat, but definitely also a useful target for Selig to exit stage left as being "tough on steroids".

Maybe we need one of our esteemed board members to become a real commissioner?

[novakjr]

Bo Jackson had some serious power. Agree with Kingman too. Josh Hamilton wasn't exactly hitting little choppers all over the field.. Albert Belle(ped suspicions aside, mostly due to his attitude) hit some absolute f'ing rockets..

[RTK]

Baseball Almanac;

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/art_hr.shtml

[TUM301]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Nobody has mentioned Frank Howard--he could launch 'em w/ ANYONE!

When I saw the topic line 2 guys came to mind right off the bat , Howard was one Killebrew was the 2`nd. Howard for sheer distance and Killebrew for how quickly they left the stadium ! On a side note, never saw a better fastball hitter than O Cepeda, he could turn around the best of them. Yaz a close 2`nd. Go Sox

[Section103]

Originally Posted by RTK

Baseball Almanac;

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/art_hr.shtml

Thank you.

[steve B]

This made me dig out an old book, "A rooters guide to the Red Sox" from 1974. It has an interesting section on Home runs, including a number of long ones.

At the time there had only been five hit completely out to the right of the flagpole. An interesting list

May22, 1937 Hank Greenberg
Aug 12, 1937 Jimmy Foxx
Apr 20, 1957 Bill Skowron
May 16, 1970 Yaz
Sept. 29, 1973 Bobby Mitchell

Jim Rice joined that club in 1975
Most of those were about 8-10 feet to the right,

Mantle came very close, hitting one that nearly cleared but being 30-40 feet to the right didn't quite make it - still hit at around 480 ft.

The renovations and scoreboard in 76 made it nearly impossible, But Nomar had one that would have been out. It hit on the "new" wall section above the brick. (And of course was probably aided by chemistry)

That section of wall is gone now, so there will be others.


Of the homers I've seen in person Rice was by far the most powerful.
The longest Homer I've ever seen televised was one Kingman hit at Fenway during his brief time with the Yankees. It hit up in the bank of lights on the second tower over from the leftfield line at Fenway. I never even see it mentioned, but it was amazing.

Steve B

[frankbmd]

The Physics of Baseball (3rd Edition) [Paperback]
Robert K. Adair (Author)

This little book has been around for awhile (3 decades) and has been updated by the author (3rd edition in 2002). The physical limits of how far a baseball can be hit are discussed in one of the chapters. It is an interesting read and was written by a physicist for the non-physicists among us. It is still available on Amazon. Participants in this thread might enjoy it as well as the answers it tries to provide. Hint: An 800 foot HR ain't going to happen.

[t206blogcom]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Bryce Harper. Only Prince Fielder launched one longer than him in last year's home run derby (I know, not the same as regular season, just saying).

[bnorth]

This Glenallen Hill homer always impressed me. He hit the ball on top of the roof on the building across the street. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wDrw76ieTs

[Big Six]

I have never believed that football is America's pastime...it has always been, and always will be, baseball...and here is why. Baseball is played by guys who look (or used to look) just like we do or did. Most baseball players look like normal, run-of-the-mill people. They don't have the height of basketball players and they aren't the mountain of men that most football players are. We see these guys play a game that looks sooo damn simple and trick ourselves in to thinking we could do it, too...if only we had stuck with it. You don't have to be fast, or strong, or smart to play baseball. Anyone can (and has) played the game at the highest level. Phil Rizzuto, Willie Keeler and Rube Waddell are all Hall of Famers but would have been NOTHING in basketball or football...

Add to this the fact that football players wear helmets w/ face masks and they might as well not even be human. We can't recognize them the way we do with baseball players. How many retired football players that aren't commentators can you recognize if you saw them walking down the street? I love football as much as the next guy but at the end of the day, its a bunch of guys who run around trying to decapitate each other. A lineman gets hurt and a new one takes his place...no one even notices! There are exceptions like Peyton Manning and Tim Tebow and Mean Joe Green who are just magnetic and larger than life that the fans know and love. But they are the exception, not the rule.

That ability to connect with the players is why we are so passionate about the game of baseball, the records, the numbers and the Hall of Fame. That's why it matters so much to us and so many others...

[midwaylandscaping]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

When it comes to tape-measure home runs, Willie Stargell was unrivaled.

First guy I thought of not being old enough to have seen Mantle, much less Ruth, Foxx etc. Willie was pretty intimidating.

[tedzan]

An excellent observation between BB, FB, and BskB players.....very well stated.

Furthermore, throughout the years we have had personal connections with many of our "heroes of the diamond". At BB card shows, Hall of Fame weekends.....and,
like my experience growing up in the same neighborhood as Phil Rizzuto (Hillside, NJ).

And, as you noted about our similarity to some of these BB players, Phil and I are (were) of the same stature and build. However, I'll tell you this....for a small guy,
Phil had large hands (and a very strong handshake).

Thanks for posting your "$.02...."


TED Z

[RTK]

Originally Posted by Section103

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Yes, the Glenallen Hill home run came to mind. I saw one at Miller Park in Milwaukee from of all people, CC Sabathia, that was a monster shot. I recall Dave Kingman belting a few at Wrigley that landed down the street outside the park. If I remember correctly his homeruns tended to be as high as they were far.

[novakjr]

I know Maddux and Glavine could sure kill a ball...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ltD21rYWVw

[KCRfan1]

David, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Pitching is so much better, and specialized now, than it was decades ago. Sure the greats would be great in any decade, but Cobb would never have the batting average now ( if he were playing ) than he did when he did play. I don't believe we will see the likes of Ruth, Lou G, Greenberg, Hack Wilson, Ott, Kiner, Ted Klu., Mantle again. The numbers, the moon shots, presently the only player that comes to mind is Stanton in terms of moon shot home runs.

[ctownboy]

To answer the quetion, "will we see guys who hit moonshots again?", I think part of the answer would have to come from who the guys in the past were hitting moonshots off of.

Was it a starting pitcher early in the game or was it later when he was tiring? Was it a pitcher throwing really hard fast balls or was it on a breaking pitch that hung?

I don't see a lot of MLB pitchers today who throw big breaking curve balls. Ones that if hung would sit there as if placed on a tee. I see more guys throwing sliders and cut fast balls.

I also see starting pitchers getting taken out of games in the sixth inning, way before they are too tired to lose velocity and keep leaving their pitches up in the zone.

I also see more guys coming in from the bull pen who throw 95+ MPH. Tough to square those pitches up and pull them.

As far as moonshots go, Adam Dunn and Wily Mo Pena, I think, both pulled balls that went over the right field seats and out of Great American Ball Park. Dunn's shot hit the concrete outside and bounced into the Ohio River.

Even though he was a horrible ball player, after Dunn did that, his fans gave THAT as a reason for keeping him on the team and paying him so much....

David

[packs]

I was at a playoff game between the Yankees and Indians where Manny hit one half way up the upper deck in left field at Yankee Stadium. I'd never seen anyone do it before or since.

[tedzan]

Washington's Griffith Stadium....April 17, 1953....21-year old Mickey blasts the ball out of the park over the centerfield wall....565 ft away.

I was 14 years old when I saw this tremendous HR on TV.





TED Z

[ullmandds]

nice Ted...I used to cherish that card which I used to own! my dad "claims" to have been at that game...but he couldn't furnish the ticket stub to prove it!!!

[Luke]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Since PEDs were brought up, does anyone else wonder how every other major sport has almost no issues compared to MLB, yet MLB is the one that gets killed because they tried to clean up the sport? Why is it that people have no problem watching football and all these crazy things happen with huge humans doing ridiculous things and NO ONE cares. No one in their right mind can believe the NFL cracks down on players with the size they are and punishment they take.

It's mind-boggling to me that baseball does the most against PEDs, yet they also get killed the most. Every off-season, the talk is PEDs for the last ten years or so.

It's like the other three major sports all said, thanks for taking the heat MLB, we will be over here in the corner ignoring everything, occasionally finding one guy so it looks like we are doing something.

I never understood how the sport that does more than the other three major sports combined, gets the black eye.

I think the reason for this is that numbers are so sacred in baseball. Record-holders are revered more than in any other sport. In football, no one cares who has the most rushing TDs, so if someone comes along and breaks the record looking like they stepped out of a comic book, there aren't a bunch of fans who are offended. They are just entertained. With baseball, you grow up memorizing all the numbers and it really doesn't feel right to have a guy with a size 9 head break 755.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

I think the reason for this is that numbers are so sacred in baseball. Record-holders are revered more than in any other sport. In football, no one cares who has the most rushing TDs, so if someone comes along and breaks the record looking like they stepped out of a comic book, there aren't a bunch of fans who are offended. They are just entertained. With baseball, you grow up memorizing all the numbers and it really doesn't feel right to have a guy with a size 9 head break 755.

It's always been hard for me to find a hat that fits.

[Luke]

Haha! All those jokes probably take up quite a bit of real estate up there :-D.
I thought I was in on the first page. Wouldn't have even bothered to post if I'd seen that we'd already discussed Mantle, Ruth, and Luzinski.

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