Barely OT: ESPN Ranking Greatest Players

[GregMitch34]

They are counting down to the top 25, to be posted tomorrow, but there's already 26 to 100 to debate. Interesting that they rank Eddie Collins ahead of Nap Lajoie--while card prices DO NOT. Then there are the eternal then and now contrasts, e.g. Steve Carlton rated ahead of Matty. Enjoy:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video...st-mlb-players

[z28jd]

This list made my head hurt. I had a couple long posts on their facebook page about it. The list reeks of too many people like Mitch Williams and John Kruk adding their input, as opposed to people who have a grasp of baseball history before the 60's

[GregMitch34]

Well, presume they will name the Babe #1--since he would have likely made the Hall strictly as a pitcher if he'd never switched to OF.

Dennis Eckersley? Really?

[prewarsports]

Tim Raines ahead of Ed Delahanty, and by A LOT?

Fergie Jenkins WAY ahead of Rube Waddell?

I got from number 100 to number 60 and just quit, waste of everyones time.

Rhys

[bcbgcbrcb]

Obviously, they favor the modern day players over the old timers......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Obviously, they favor the modern day players over the old timers......

Yeah but my sense is that most folks here do exactly the opposite and underrate modern players.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

They are counting down to the top 25, to be posted tomorrow, but there's already 26 to 100 to debate. Interesting that they rank Eddie Collins ahead of Nap Lajoie--while card prices DO NOT. Then there are the eternal then and now contrasts, e.g. Steve Carlton rated ahead of Matty. Enjoy:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video...st-mlb-players

From memory Bill James ranks Collins well ahead of Lajoie too.

[GregMitch34]

One big joke: Drysdale ranked so high. 209-156 pitching mainly with good teams, in pitcher's park.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

One big joke: Drysdale ranked so high. 209-156 pitching mainly with good teams, in pitcher's park.

He was only 32 when he retired though, so that's a little deceptive.

[RGold]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He was only 32 when he retired though, so that's a little deceptive.

And he was on Beverly Hillbillies.

[bigtrain]

Anyone who ranks Lefty Grove at 47 is no "expert".

[bcbgcbrcb]

I believe the reason for the modern players favoritism is so that they can show highlight footage of that player's career during the broadcast, how would they do that for Ed Delahanty or Cap Anson?

[barrysloate]

Barry Larkin well ahead of Al Simmons? Come on now, did they take a look at some of Simmons batting averages?

[travrosty]

drysdale on the brady bunch too.

[CMIZ5290]

Collins over lajoie?? Not even close.....forget collin's length of play, he can't compare to nap......

[Gecklund311]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Barry Larkin well ahead of Al Simmons? Come on now, did they take a look at some of Simmons batting averages?

Always thought Larkin was comically overrated, and was shocked to see him in the top 100 at all, let alone ahead of guys like Simmons, Gehringer, Anson, and Biggio.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Collins over lajoie?? Not even close.....forget collin's length of play, he can't compare to nap......

He does rate ahead of Lajoie according to the newest win share metric featured on baseball reference. And as mentioned Bill James rates Collins well ahead of Lajoie. It isn't crazy even if you disagree.

[drc]

Tops 100 list anything is an intellectually deficient idea from the start. With ESPN, it's strictly done as a ratings/page hits thing. That's how they make their money.

Seriously, ESPN and their ilk will make a few bad picks just for the controversy/eyeballs.

"Top 100 novelists"-- How you the Hell do objectively pick novelist #34?

Top 100 lists, Rock 'n Roll Museum-- you're getting an idea what offends my intellect.

P.s., I believe Don Drysdale appeared on Leave it to Beaver too. Steve Carleton hit Al Bundy in the head with a baseball on Married With Children. Don't know how that was factored into his ranking.

P.s.s. Why isn't Don Drysdale in the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame? Discuss.

P.s.s.s. I just realized there was a Mr. Drysdale on Beverly Hillbillies. This is getting eerie. On 12/12/12 too. Discuss.

P.s.s.s.s. I know a woman who is of Mayan ancestry. Very cute. I rank her at least a #49.

[Matt]

I stopped looking through when I saw Pedro Martinez ahead of Lefty Grove & Grover Alexander.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Matt

I stopped looking through when I saw Pedro Martinez ahead of Lefty Grove & Grover Alexander.

I thought the same thing about Nolan Ryan ahead of those two.

[barrysloate]

Don Drysdale did appear on an episode of Leave it to Beaver. I guess it was easy for him to do TV since the studios were in or around Los Angeles.

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah but my sense is that most folks here do exactly the opposite and underrate modern players.

+1

[bosoxfan]

Originally Posted by Matt

I stopped looking through when I saw Pedro Martinez ahead of Lefty Grove & Grover Alexander.

If your talking about the greatest pitcher and longevity is not a BIG part of the equation, Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all time.

He had the best 5 year period of any pitcher ever and that includes Grove, Koufax, ect.........

These questions are not a waste of time. Discussing subjects like this is what make sports great. Not as great as Pedro but great just the same.

[AMBST95]

These lists have about as much merit as the NCAA Football Coaches Poll

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all-time?

I needed that laugh this morning. Thank you
(No offense, Red Sawk fans. I do admire your passion though!)


Now, if we are talking about most cowardly hurlers of all-time.....Mr. Martinez, come get your major award.

Originally Posted by bosoxfan

If your talking about the greatest pitcher and longevity is not a BIG part of the equation, Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all time.

He had the best 5 year period of any pitcher ever and that includes Grove, Koufax, ect.........

These questions are not a waste of time. Discussing subjects like this is what make sports great. Not as great as Pedro but great just the same.

[sycks22]

Still laughing at Shoeless Joe being an honorable mention, but Gwynn being over 30 spots higher than him. Jackson had the 3rd highest batting avg and gwynn was a 1 trick pony with batting avg too. Neither were fast or had great arms so having Gwynn noticably over Jackson is a joke.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Still laughing at Shoeless Joe being an honorable mention, but Gwynn being over 30 spots higher than him. Jackson had the 3rd highest batting avg and gwynn was a 1 trick pony with batting avg too. Neither were fast or had great arms so having Gwynn noticably over Jackson is a joke.

But Gwynn did has 56 steals one year

Not saying he's better than Joe though

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Matt

I stopped looking through when I saw Pedro Martinez ahead of Lefty Grove & Grover Alexander.

Why because Pedro was more dominant?

[GregMitch34]

They got to the top ten today and no shock, the Babe took the crown, but in a bit of a surprise (though perhaps deserved) Willie Mays finished 2nd. Then, in some kind of order, Ted, Hank, Barry, Ty, Clemens (they had said out front that cheating was allowed).

But check out the other picks from there, you'll find plenty to argue with--for example, Randy Johnson finishing well ahead of Matty, and so on.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910

Pedro Martinez is the greatest pitcher of all-time?

I needed that laugh this morning. Thank you
(No offense, Red Sawk fans. I do admire your passion though!)


Now, if we are talking about most cowardly hurlers of all-time.....Mr. Martinez, come get your major award.

+1

[iwantitiwinit]

Ok that ranking is ridiculous, in my opinion. Just to cite a few glaring issues: Mariano Rivera is so far superior to any other reliever that ranking him 67 is an embarassment, Clemens at 7 no way, not even in the top 20 in my opinion, lastly Morgan at 19 way overrated here (can you tell me Morgan should be ahead of Bench?).

[EvilKing00]

Im a bonds fan, but i never knew this stat:

In 2004, this guy reached base 376 times, walked 232 times and was intentionally walked 120 times. In one year. And here's my all-time favorite Bonds stat: Even if he'd gotten no hits that year, he still would have had a higher OBP than the player who led the league in hits. --Jayson Stark

[sycks22]

Joe Morgan's better than Dimaggio? Amazing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pedro at his peak was as good as or better than anyone. His career stats of course fall short of some of the pitchers with more longevity.

[CMIZ5290]

I dont get the hype either over Joe Morgan, come on, are you kidding me?

[Gecklund311]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I dont get the hype either over Joe Morgan, come on, are you kidding me?

Outside of Hornsby's 1920-1925, Joe Morgan's 1972-1977 is probably the best stretch by a second baseman in the history of baseball. He could hit for average and power, stole 50+ bases, walked 100+ times a year, and was a gold glove fielder.

His announcing career hasn't helped his image, as people tend to be annoyed by him, and that opinion seems to bleed over to the image of him as a player. I wouldn't have ranked him as highly as ESPN, but a spot around number 30 seems about right.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pedro at his peak was as good as or better than anyone. His career stats of course fall short of some of the pitchers with more longevity.

He was one of the best for a certain number of seasons, (12 great seasons) 11 in a row (also 3 of them his ERA was mid to Hi 3's)- BUT some of the grates pitched great for longer.

[isaac2004]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pedro at his peak was as good as or better than anyone. His career stats of course fall short of some of the pitchers with more longevity.

I think thats the point of this ranking, not who had the best career, but who was the best player taking into account "prime" years. I agree Pedro was insane those few years, but I stil can't see him ranked that high... I think Koufax would be way higher, but he is taxed because he didnt play long enough

[WWGjohn]

When I saw they included all the "roid & HGH" players, I dismissed the whole project.

John

[packs]

To me if this list is based on pure ability and talent Ken Griffey Jr. is the second best baseball player of all time behind Ruth.

I'm very surprised that Rube Waddell and Dazzy Vance were both excluded from the Top 50. When Waddell played he was the most dominating pitcher to ever play Major League baseball. And Vance was just as dominating. How many guys lead the league in strikeouts 7 years in a row?

[EvilKing00]

Griffey at 34 is a joke, he should be way closer to the top 20

[bender07]

Originally Posted by WWGjohn

When I saw they included all the "roid & HGH" players, I dismissed the whole project.

John

+1

[z28jd]

The problem with that thinking on the "roid" players is who can you positively confirm never did anything that is now against MLB rules? The answer is 100% absolutely no one that has played since the 70's and then before that, we all have heard the stories about how easy it was to get pills. Basically, if you could walk into the clubhouse, you could get amphetamines in the 60's. So unless you want to do a list of only pre-1950 players, then you're going to have to include everyone who has played. Just because someone like Jeter or Larkin didn't get caught, doesn't mean they didn't do it, so don't pretend like 10-15 people are guilty and everyone else was clean during an era with no rules in place against it.

Thinking that way, I have no problem seeing a list of the top 100 players pre-1950, definitely would be more interesting than this list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Griffey at 34 is a joke, he should be way closer to the top 20

i don't agree, I love Griffey but his batting average was never that good, his walks were so-so, and as great as he was in the 90s he only won one MVP. Not a top 20 of all time by any means in my view. Maybe the 6th best CF of all time behind Cobb Mays Speaker Dimaggio and Mantle.

[oldjudge]

Steroids or no steroids I think Cobb should be ranked number three (if not higher). Remember, the people who saw both Cobb and Ruth gave Cobb more HOF votes (and it wasn't like Cobb was loved). I think Bonds is rated way too high, Clemens too high(and I have always been a huge Roger Clemens fan), Mantle too high, Hornsby way too low. My order would be:

Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Hornsby, Johnson, Gehrig, Wagner, Williams, Henderson, .........

[Peter_Spaeth]

Top ten nonpitchers, taking roid stats at face value: Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Williams, Bonds, Musial, Aaron, Gehrig, Wagner, Dimaggio.

[ynnek4]

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Steroids or no steroids I think Cobb should be ranked number three (if not higher). Remember, the people who saw both Cobb and Ruth gave Cobb more HOF votes (and it wasn't like Cobb was loved). I think Bonds is rated way too high, Clemens too high(and I have always been a huge Roger Clemens fan), Mantle too high, Hornsby way too low. My order would be:

Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Hornsby, Johnson, Gehrig, Wagner, Williams, Henderson, .........

[howard38]

.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ynnek4

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

+1...love him or hate him, he was absolutely incredible.

[michael3322]

Totally agree. What's the point of such a list with the juicers? Some of their descriptions don't even mention the steroids (eg. Mark Steroid McGwire, Manny Suspended for Steroids Ramirez)Really?

Chipper Jones is better than Jackie Robinson? Really?

Bagwell was better than Frank Thomas? Really?

Biggio is the 90th best ballplayer in history? Really?

How can anyone take this list seriously?