T206 Distribution? Where'd they go, and when?

[jimivintage]

Ok, so I looked around t206resource.com and some other places, but can't get the answers I'm looking for. Can some people jump in on a conversation here on the following:

1) I know the t206s were distributed/produced between 1909-11, but did certain factories jump on board later during that range? For example, perhaps Lenox didn't until 1910 and Drum in 1911? (I randomly chose those companies and years.) So, for someone obtaining a RC...and is psycho, like I can be, and would rather have the Sweet Caporal because they may have started their production a few months earlier than say Piedmont, that might be of interest. Ideas on this?

2) Obviously, Drum, Lenox, Carolina Brights, Ty Cobb backs, etc. are rarer, but can we talk a little about how they were distributed? I know Polar Bear was produced here in Ohio....Middletown to be exact, but could I expect to find more of these cards locally than say someone living a few states away? (Forget eBay for right now.) If I had been a collector during that era living in Ohio, might I have not had cards distributed from Virginia? I'm guessing some of these distributors were sending cigarette packs all over the country, but surely some were not.

3) Could I expect to see more players from say Cleveland, Detroit, etc. on a Polar Bear back, considering the company was from here? Were some of these companies more heavy on the local players? It seems rather random to me.

I didn't go into too much research at all on the third question there. I'm hoping for some good conversation out of this, and perhaps some insight from some of the guys on here who have put in their time on the subject.

Take care all!

Now your talking crazy Ted Z and I were just discussing this the other day about T206's and T205's. I have long thought there was a territory link in the T205 set. More Drums, cardinals, browns, detroit players and so on in the Midwest region and Yankees, highlanders, and so on in the east region. Maybe you should email Ted Z and ask him for some info. We do know that some of the original finds of cards are backs that have been produced nearby. The STL Drum find, louisana find(tango eggs?) and I am sure there are more but just a couple off the top of my head

[jimivintage]

I tried to PM Ted last night, but his box is full. Hoping someone would shed some insight.

[barrysloate]

Ted doesn't accept PM's, send him an email.

[Abravefan11]

1) It wasn't so much that ATC added additional factories that distributed the cards, but rather included the distribution of the cards with more brands as the set progressed. For example brands like Lenox and Uzit didn't include cards until the last of the T206's were printed. But they were distributed out of the same factory (No.30) as some of the first Sweet Caporal cards issued in the set. Some brands were added during the sets printing like Polar Bear that was a new factory. And towards the end ATC did shift the distribution of cards included in American Beauty, Piedmont and Sweet Caporal to factory 42.

2) The factory a brand was distributed out of wasn't necessarily where that product would be sold or the most popular. (Jon Canfield can speak about this much better than I.) Hindu's were issued out of factory No.649 in New York, but their popularity was throughout the south. Sovereign's were issued out of factory No.25 in Richmond, but were popular up north in areas like New York.

3) I have not seen a direct connection between a brand, where it was popular, and which players were selected to be included with that product. In many cases there are examples of the same groups of subjects being printed and distributed with multiple brands.

Should have clarified better. I was talking about the T205 set. Theres a difference in the 2 with when and how things were done due to the separation of the ATC in 1911.

[Abravefan11]

Jimi - I put this together and maybe it will help. This list isn't the exact order the cards were distributed in, but a general grouping of when they were produced and the factories they were distributed from.

[tedzan]

Hi Jimi

I saw your PM to me; however, I was away for most of the weekend. Jimi, I do not do PM's. So, if you would still like to contact me here is my email address......
tedzan11@comcast.net

Your question is a great one. I hve tried to research where some of the T-brands (T206 & T205 related) were distributed. I haven't found any really good source
indicating as such, as of yet. Also, your observation....."It seems rather random to me.".....is a pretty good one. I have noticed one puzzling exception. American
Lithographic did not print Ty Cobb with the Factory #649 (Rochester, NY) T206 cards with Brown HINDU backs, or SWEET CAPORAL 150 overprint backs. DITTO,
for the T205 Ty Cobb with HASSAN (Factory #649) and HINDU. I find this very strange ?

However, I can give you a starting idea based on several finds I have been fortunate to acquire these past 33 years that I have been collecting T206's (and to a
lesser extent, T205's). I realize my 5 original finds are anecdotal, but for whatever they are worth, I have listed them......

1.....original all PIEDMONT collection of 400+ different T206 cards from South Carolina

2.....original PIEDMONT (240 cards) and OLD MILL Southern Leaguer's (28 cards) from North Carolina

3.....original all SOVEREIGN collection of 222 assorted T206 cards from Erie, PA

4.....original all SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) collection of 184 - T206 cards from Suffolk County, LI, NY

5.....original all SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #25) collection of 252 different T206 cards from Media, PA (South of Phila.)

Other finds (not mine) that I either acquired cards from, or was a witness to........

5.....original all SOVEREIGN collection of 262 different T206 cards from Upstate, NY

6.....original all SOVEREIGN collection of 340 assorted T206 cards from Connecticut

7.....original all DRUM collection of 41 - T206's, and 8 - T205's from St Louis (Ron Oser and I cataloged them at The Philly Show several years ago).

8.....original all PIEDMONT collection of 600+ assorted T206 cards (including approx. 20 rare PIEDMONT 350 cards) in nearby Atlanta, Georgia


These instantly come to my mind; but of course, there are many more that give us an idea where some of these T-brands were distributed. And also, there are
the more recent COUPON and RED CROSS finds from the Louisiana region that tell us a lot about those cigarette brands.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I have noticed one puzzling exception. American Lithographic did not print Ty Cobb with the Factory #649 (Rochester, NY) T206 cards with Brown HINDU backs, or SWEET CAPORAL 150 overprint backs.

TED Z

Ted - While we're talking about distribution and factories I have a question about your quote above, specifically the "Factory #649 (Rochester, NY)."

The T206 cards issued out of that factory all have the following line:

FACTORY 649. 1st DIST. N.Y.

Each state had tax districts for collecting the federal taxes on tobacco. According to IRS information in New York state the 1st District was Brooklyn and Rochester was the 28th District.

So if Factory #649 was in Rochester wouldn't the cards have 28th DIST. in the factory line?

[tedzan]

It's my understanding that Factory #30 (2nd District) was the Brooklyn plant.

Factory #649 (1st District) was the modernized plant (circa 1908), and it's location was in Rochester, NY

Some of the tobacco products from Factory #649 are represented here by the cards inserted in their cigarette packs........















If you have another location for this Factory, I would like to hear about it.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

According to IRS tax records:

Factory 30 2nd Dist was in the New York, NY tax district.

Factory 649 1st Dist was in the Brooklyn, NY tax district.

Rochester was the 28th tax district.

[tedzan]

Dist. #28 in Rochester is a POLITICAL identification.

For the purposes of the newly established tobacco revenue taxation identification at the turn of the 20th Century,
the Tax districts were numbered differently.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Dist. #28 in Rochester is a POLITICAL identification.

For the purposes of the newly established tobacco revenue taxation identification at the turn of the 20th Century,
the Tax districts were numbered differently.


TED Z

This information is from the Tobacco Trade Directory of the United States and Cuba. It outlines the tax districts set up by the I.R.S. for the collection of federal taxes on tobacco.

These are the New York districts per the directory and the men responsible for collecting those taxes in each district.

NEW YORK
1st Brooklyn: Edward B. Jordan
2nd New York: Charles Anderson
3rd New York: Ferdinand Eidman
14th Albany: John G. Ward
21st Syracuse: Peter E. Garlick
28th Rochester: Archie Sanders

Here's a bio for the Rochester collector:

Archie Dovell Sanders (1857-1941) — also known as Archie D. Sanders — of Stafford, Genesee County, N.Y. Born in Stafford, Genesee County, N.Y., June 17, 1857. Son of Elizabeth (Dovell) Sanders and John Sanders. Republican. Farmer; member of New York state assembly from Genesee County, 1896-97; delegate to Republican National Convention from New York, 1896, 1924, 1932, 1936 (alternate), 1940 (alternate); member of New York Republican State Committee, 1900-01; U.S. Collector of Internal Revenue for the 28th New York District, 1909; member of New York state senate 44th District, 1915-16; U.S. Representative from New York 39th District, 1917-33; chair of Genesee County Republican Party, 1929, 1939. Died, in Strong Memorial Hospital, Rochester, Monroe County, N.Y., July 15, 1941 (age 84 years, 28 days). Interment at Stafford Rural Cemetery, Stafford, N.Y.

[E93]

Tim,
I'm curious as to why you list Ty Cobb as 1910-1912. As far as I know, all the know ads for the brand are from early 1910. What would lead you to believe it continued to be produced until 1912. My best guess is that it was a very short-lived specialty brand of the ATC.
JimB

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by E93

Tim,
I'm curious as to why you list Ty Cobb as 1910-1912. As far as I know, all the know ads for the brand are from early 1910. What would lead you to believe it continued to be produced until 1912. My best guess is that it was a very short-lived specialty brand of the ATC.
JimB

Jim - I should have added a question mark after the date on the Cobb line. -- 1910-12?

Everything about the product and advertisements you and I are in agreement on. What opened up the possibility of a later date was the Ty Cobb tin auctioned by REA earlier this year. It had a full tax stamp with a date of August 15, 1912. This tin shows, at the least, that there was a brief redistribution of the Ty Cobb tobacco in 1912. It was done by a factory in Maryland, after the ATC trust break up. Because of this I left the possible dates of the Cobb cards distribution open.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Jimi - I put this together and maybe it will help. This list isn't the exact order the cards were distributed in, but a general grouping of when they were produced and the factories they were distributed from.

Thank you, Jim

I was going to bring up the 1910 (only) issue of the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card.

Furthermore, the following cards were printed and issued ONLY in circa Spring of 1911......

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 f42
PIEDMONT 460 f42
SWEET CAP 460 f42 (overprint)
SWEET CAP 460 f42
UZIT


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Furthermore, the following cards were printed and issued ONLY in circa Spring of 1911......

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 f42
PIEDMONT 460 f42
SWEET CAP 460 f42 (overprint)
SWEET CAP 460 f42
UZIT


TED Z

It's my opinion that the 460 series cards were printed in the latter part of 1910 into early 1911. So on the generalized list above, I used the dates 1910-11 for all 460 series brands.

If I were to date specifically the brands issued out of factory 42, I still wouldn't rule out cards being distributed from that factory in late 1910. In mid October 1910 ATC announced they were moving the manufacturing of several brands, including Piedmont, to their factory in Durham. At the same time they were moving their export brands from Durham to Petersburg.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

It's my opinion that the 460 series cards were printed in the latter part of 1910 into early 1911. So on the generalized list above, I used the dates 1910-11 for all 460 series brands.

If I were to date specifically the brands issued out of factory 42, I still wouldn't rule out cards being distributed from that factory in late 1910. In mid October 1910 ATC announced they were moving the manufacturing of several brands, including Piedmont, to their factory in Durham. At the same time they were moving their export brands from Durham to Petersburg.

Tim

I totally agree with you that the 46 subjects of the 460-only series were printed sometime in mid-to-late 1910; and, issued with Factory 25,
Factory 30, Factory 6, and Factory 17 backs during 1910.

But, the Factory 42 cards and the UZIT are circa early Spring 1911. American Lithographic ledger records reveal to us of the issuance of UZIT
T206's in Feb-Mar 1911.



Regarding the Ty Cobb Tin, a 1912 tax stamp on it tells us nothing about the Ty Cobb card. I do not think that any proof has emerged that
this very unique card was ever in the Tin. Tobacco stains on some cards, notwithstanding.
These stains were most likely placed on these cards by the guys who used the this Cut Plug product for chewing or pipe smoking.


TED Z