UPDATE! - Caught Off Guard - Guy offering to sell- 1917 Cin Reds w/ Christy Mathews

[smokelessjoe]

Any opinions on this? The red is not in the picture its the camera phone - Not sure if I have seen this image before - Guy is selling for what seems to be a decent price - Please help! Thank you, Shawn

[Leon]

You know these things fairly well Shawn. If the paper looks good it could be ok but for me it's too hard to tell from a scan....not even necessarily the not-so-great picture. If you can see the back it might help give a much better indication. Great pic....

[Brian Van Horn]

Go for it! Not an expert on paper.

[slidekellyslide]

Is Thorpe in the photo?

[smokelessjoe]

You are right Leon, but this is one of those deals where it is a friend who knows I collect baseball and has sent pictures from his phone - If I were in person - I would have no problem... I cannot find this picture is blowing my mind.

[smokelessjoe]

I think Thorpe is next to Christy?

[slidekellyslide]

He's not one of the guys next to Matty...I'm thinking maybe the first guy on the left in the back row, but need a better closeup. If the photo is legit you should jump on it if the price is right.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I think Thorpe is next to Christy?

Can you get a guarantee or a 24 hour return policy? I know it's through a middle person but if the seller won't (don't know if he will or not) guarantee authenticity, without a return policy, it would make me very skeptical. Not impossibly good, but skeptical.

[smokelessjoe]

I am skeptical as well - The frame looks like one of those i have seen before with fake stuff in them - Aggravating I cannot find another image? My friend is at a flea market??? Doubt there is a guarantee? $100

Thanks everyone, by the way.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I am skeptical as well - The frame looks like one of those i have seen before with fake stuff in them - Aggravating I cannot find another image? My friend is at a flea market??? Doubt there is a guarantee? $100

Thanks everyone, by the way.

My experiences there is about a 97.5% chance it's not good. And I have been the recipient of the awesome other 2.5% a couple times .

[slidekellyslide]

I think the photo is legit...in the bottom area where the name of the photographer is there is no graininess like you would most likely see from a flea market forger. I'd take the gamble myself.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I think the photo is legit...in the bottom area where the name of the photographer is there is no graininess like you would most likely see from a flea market forger. I'd take the gamble myself.

I noticed that right away too Dan. Even on cards, most times, those copyrights are blurry if it is a reprint or fake. I just know my general luck .

[drc]

I don't see anything wrong looking at the images posted, but you'd have to see it in person to know. I don't recall seeing before a Reds team photo with Mathewson-- which is evidence pointing to it being genuine. It it was a common image, one would be more suspicious.

You should see what it looks like outside the frame, as it the upper left corner is damaged and other parts may be as well.

Also, I'd be interested to know the size.

[smokelessjoe]

My friend guessed 11 x14 or bigger on the size??? He is not a collector so it makes it interesting

[drc]

A larger size is what I wanted to hear. 11x14 is consistent for a period team photo like that. It also appears to be mounted-- it looks as if you can see the edge of cardboard backing in the upper right--, which is neat.

Just looking at the images-- and I'm just looking at the front in a frame--, I see nothing wrong with the photo. Meaning nothing that says it's a reprint or fake and it has overall appearance of being authentic. Again, I'd have to see it in person to give a real opinion though.

[smokelessjoe]

Alright David,

I am going all in, but if it turns out to be fake - I will be so mad at you!

[Bicem]

even if it's fake and worthless, still a cool display piece.

I think it's legit though.

[RUSH2112]

Some close-up pics of the back would certainly help.

Seeing in person, its easy to determine if an original backing and nails that hold the backing on, have been removed to insert a modern fake photo. Usually the wood or cardboard backing has staining from the nails.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Good luck Shawn. I can't wait to hear the results when you get it in hand.

[scmavl]

If it's fake, I'll give you $100 for it because it's a cool pic.

If it's real, I'll give you $105.

[Jaybird]

I agree, looks real. I think I see Hal Chase in middle of top row. Was he on this team? I don't see Thorpe.

[Bicem]

Definitely Chase, I don't see Thorpe either.

[slidekellyslide]

Clarence Mitchell second from left in the front row.

[White Borders]

This might help for identifying players: 1917 Cincinnati Reds Roster from Baseball Almanac.

Pitchers
Rube Bressler
Hod Eller
Joe Engel
Elmer Knetzer
Clarence Mitchell
Scott Perry
Herman Pillette
Mike Regan
Jimmy Ring
Dutch Ruether
Roy Sanders
Pete Schneider
Fred Toney

Catchers
Tommy Clarke
Emil Huhn
Harry Smith
Ivey Wingo

Infielders
Hal Chase
Gus Getz
Heinie Groh
Larry Kopf
Bill McKechnie
Dave Shean

Outfielders
Manuel Cueto
Tommy Griffith
Sherry Magee
Greasy Neale
Edd Roush
Jim Thorpe


Best Regards,
Craig

[brianp-beme]

It looks like Edd Roush top row third from the left.

Brian

[TheBig6]

Nice Team Photo
TheBig6 in a Reds Uniform is pretty Cool.
I think I've seen that image somewhere before.
I think it's real but thats just my uneducated opinion.
Good Luck

[bmarlowe1]

The correct ID's are as follows:
Back row:
Hod Eller, Mike Regan, Edd Roush, Hal Chase, Dave Shean, Pete Schneider, Ivey Wingo, Elmer Knetzer, Roy G. Sanders

Middle Row:
Emil Huhn, Fred Toney, Greasy Neale, Tomas Romanach, Tommy Griffith, Jimmy Ring, Eddie Gerner

Front Row:
Nick Allen, Clarence Mitchell, Manuel Cueto, Christy Mathweson, Larry Kopf, Heinie Groh, Tommy Clarke

About 5 years ago I did the ID's for a descendant of Roy G. Sanders. I couldn't figure out the guy dead center. One name in a March 1917 issue of TSN listing players present at Red's spring training was "Romanach" - but I could find no minor or major league record for that name - so I couldn't find his face for comparison. A year or so later I found the same face as the unknown Red depicted in a photo of Tomas Romanach in "Smoke - The Romance and Lore of Cuban Baseball." He was a Cuban of non-Spanish European descent who apparently appeared in some Negro League games.

[tjb1952tjb]

Very interesting Mark........thanks! It's always nice to have all of the names associated with the faces.

[Jaybird]

Nice get on Romanach. Gotta love how these things can come to you even a year or years down the line. Thanks for sharing that. I've added "Smoke" to my summer reading list.

[smokelessjoe]

First, I would like to thank everyone for their help. Mark, Thank you very much - you have been a huge help to the history of baseball and to collectors like us - Thank you.

Cool Thing: The broken corner in the upper left was in the frame!!!

Ok, here are some photos - Measures nearly 14" x just over 11" - The Kicker is the sticker on the back - For me the sticker makes it solid - The Address on the front of the photo "21 w. Liberty Street" matches the address on the sticker on the back. I am now wondering if the frame is original, due to the fact the sticker states "picture frames cut to order"???

With the name "F. Boellinger" I have been able to find quite allot of Cincinnati baseball pictures. Even has some copyrighted

Wondering about value on this?? Any guesses

[D. Bergin]

Wow, nice get! Looks like you bucked the odds on this one.

[Leon]

Congrats Shawn. Glad it worked out. Great looking pic!!

[oldjudge]

Shawn--I would think that it is worth several thousand. If interested in selling I would consign it to a major auction house and let the market answer your question. You did very well.

[drc]

It's worth a few thousand and up, I'd think. They key is Christy Mathewson, who is always popular and a tough photo subject, and that there are very few Reds photos with Mathewson. It may be the only Reds/Mathewson photo like it. A must have for the Mathewson or vintage Reds collector. The size and photographer's sticker (with Cincinnati address) are nice too. 11x14" isn't monsterous but is a good display size. It's got some condition issues, but is better than I expected. I half expected it to be missing some big chunks. If it is the original frame, that would great too. Probably get some more money if it's in the original frame.

[glchen]

Very nice picture. This 1918 Cincinnati Reds Team Real Photo postcards with Mathewson (and w/ considerable writing on it) went for ~$700 here: Link

[smokelessjoe]

Thanks everyone,

Wow, I am a little bit surprised by those values. I certainly was not thinking that high! I think I may have to come clean with my friend - Just does not feel right when he is the one who found it.

[Matthew H]

Congrats Shawn, that was a needle in a haystack!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Shawn, that's awesome. I'm glad it worked out for you and agree that it looks like it's worth quite a bit more than the $100 you put out for it. Nice friend too, I would hook him up if it were me and I sold it.

[Bicem]

great find, AH like REA would be the way to go!

[smokelessjoe]

Question for David or anyone else who may know. I just noticed or realized that the label on the back of the photo advertises that Boellinger will photograph your "Corpse". Certainly a strange thing this day & time (and I know it was fairly common to photograph the deceased back then) but my question is - was it common to advertise in that manner back then? Have you seen another label stating as such? Almost seems like it would have been a given that the local photographer would take pictures at the funeral. It does not seem like you would have had to advertise??

Shawn,

[Jay Wolt]

Shawn, awesome piece! Congrats!

[Deertick]

Nice pick-up, Shawn! You have a good friend. He deserves some congrats, too! Things like this reinvigorate me in my searches.

[slidekellyslide]

Nice score! Good for you...if you sell you should split it with your pal. You wouldn't have found it without him and he wouldn't have bought it without you.

[drc]

I haven't seem a corpse ad before, though memorial and dead family member photos were not uncommon in the 1800s. Standard service I guess.

[smokelessjoe]

Thanks again everyone,

David, that what I was thinking... I have looked at allot of photos from this time & just do not remember that type of ad. Just something that is odd...

Dan,

You are right about the splitting up the sell of the photo. This find has actually gotten my friend excited about collecting - He has dipped his toes in the water a few times in the past but never got rolling good. He is now pumped and on the hunt. I told him it was all his to do what he wants - so he wants me to sell it for him in order to fund his new hobby I am excited for him and he has even signed up with Net54! I have been on his case for years - he actually knows more about the game than I do....

I told him "a case of beer & will call it even".

[ham_i_am]

A case of beer...you got it!!!!!!! And thanks to everyone for all the help and info. I told Shawn it was cool to see everyone so pumped about the same hobby and the game we all love. Happy to be a member. Thanks.

OH...And me know more than Shawn...FUNNY!!!

[smokelessjoe]

Okay, got the photo in hand the other day and was looking it over pretty close - when I noticed a name written in pencil on the back. Took me a minute, but I made out PETER SCHNEIDER... Thinking this may have been the owner of the picture - my friend Jason and I started looking online for the name. After awhile of not really finding anything - it dawned on me that Schneider was one of the names of the players that Mark had listed!!! Fourth man from the right on the back row.


Could Pete Schneider once have owned this photo?

We have tried our best to find an example of Pete Schneiders signature.??

Does anyone have an example to compare with?

I know it could have been anyone that may have written on the back, but man it sure makes it exciting...

Thank you,
Shawn

[barrysloate]

It would make sense that a player would own a display photo like this. My guess is it's his.

[smokelessjoe]

Barry,

That is my thoughts as well... I am usually fairly good at finding things online, but I cannot find a single example of Schneiders signature

Interesting note about Pete is that he was convicted of Manslaughter and imprisoned in San Quentin... 1-10 years.

Schneider’s life after baseball is not quite as successful as his playing days … moving to Los Angeles, he enters the insurance business … on May 30, 1935, he is convicted of manslaughter in the death of Gustavo Schnabel in a bar fight ... Schneider’s defense is that Schnabel had been “assertedly disrespectful” toward his wife … undeterred, Judge Charles Burnell sentences him to serve 1 to 10 years at San Quentin Prison in California.
While imprisoned at San Quentin, Schneider gains attention as the manager of the prison’s all-star baseball team … on June 1, 1957, Schneider dies in Los Angeles after a long illness at the age of 61.

[bmarlowe1]

If the signature was not legit, why choose Pete Schneider? Seems highly likely it's good.

The other copy I know of was owned by Roy Sanders.