Snipes are killing ebay auctions

[ChiefBenderForever]

I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing a rash of ebay items that are being auctioned being ended in the last hour or so. Looks like the snipe is killing the auctions leaving some sellers to paranoid to see what happens. We have all seen cards jump $500-5000 in the last remaining seconds but also have seen the final bids hold as well. Is gavel snipe and other snipe programs the final straw that will break ebays auction style listings for any good cards out there ?

[Bosox Blair]

Hi Johnny,

Interesting - I noticed this too. I have been buying cards off eBay for 13 years. This week I had 2 bids from 2 different sellers cancelled because the auction was ended early. Both auctions had underwhelming bids going into the final day.

In the prior 13 years, I never had a bid cancelled like this!

Cheers,
Blair

[Orioles1954]

Ebay also no longer (from what I understand) charges extra for higher opening bids. The days of the true e-bay steal are long gone.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by Bosox Blair

Hi Johnny,

Interesting - I noticed this too. I have been buying cards off eBay for 13 years. This week I had 2 bids from 2 different sellers cancelled because the auction was ended early. Both auctions had underwhelming bids going into the final day.

In the prior 13 years, I never had a bid cancelled like this!

Cheers,
Blair

Like Ozzy says 'Paranoia the destroyer' . I was waiting to put a nice hammer down and all of a sudden it ended, it was also doing ok. Another one that was ended was up five minutes later with a huge starting bid lol ! In the auction description it said 'bid with confidence' !

[vintagetoppsguy]

If I remember correctly, you can't retract your bid within the last 12 hours of an auction (is that correct?). It should work the same way with sellers - they shouldn't be able to end the auction early if the auction has less than 12 hours. That's just my opinion.

[nebboy]

Yep Ive seen alot of this of late. My watch list and/or snipes bids have been getting wiped out early. Even when they have a bid on them already. Some have been relisted right away with higher starting bids, some have yet to be relisted. So I keep the listing to check for feedback later so I could figure out if someone came in with a buy now offer or maybe they were sold locally away from E-Bay (one was a local auction company). The other seller Ive seen the most of this kind of thing from is not new/used to selling cards and I would'nt think should have that level of paranoia about late money to the party.

[deadballera]

one seller responded to me that their house was broken into and all of the cards were stolen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If I remember correctly, you can't retract your bid within the last 12 hours of an auction (is that correct?). It should work the same way with sellers - they shouldn't be able to end the auction early if the auction has less than 12 hours. That's just my opinion.

I understand that viewpoint, but on the other hand, if it's my card (and I have not turned it over to a third party seller, i am just using a service to sell it), why can't i change my mind?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand that viewpoint, but on the other hand, if it's my card (and I have not turned it over to a third party seller, i am just using a service to sell it), why can't i change my mind?

+1. Ebay goes out of its way to state that it isn't an auctioneer, isn't responsible, and so on. I don't think it could make those claims if it prohibited sellers from withdrawing their items at will. That said, I don't think a consistent pattern of those sorts of shenanigans will go on for long before the Ebay police start closing down the accounts of the offenders.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not sure it's in ebay's interest to close down accounts. It apparently is not in their interest to take action against obvious shills, judging by their inaction in response to complaints.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand that viewpoint, but on the other hand, if it's my card (and I have not turned it over to a third party seller, i am just using a service to sell it), why can't i change my mind?

You can change your mind. That’s my point. I’m asking why can a seller change their mind and end the auction early, but a buyer cannot change their mind and retract their bid within the last 12 hours?

If you’re selling a card that ends in 5 minutes and want to pull the auction early for any reason, there’s nothing keeping your from doing so.

However, if I place a bid on a card on Sunday for a card that ends tonight and I change my mind an hour before the auction ends because I would rather spend the money on something else, why shouldn’t I be able to retract my bid?

All I am saying is that is should work both ways. It just seems like a double standard. Ebay is saying it’s okay for the seller to change their mind, but it’s not okay for the buyer to change their mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You can change your mind. That’s my point. I’m asking why can a seller change their mind and end the auction early, but a buyer cannot change their mind and retract their bid within the last 12 hours?

If you’re selling a card that ends in 5 minutes and want to pull the auction early for any reason, there’s nothing keeping your from doing so.

However, if I place a bid on a card on Sunday for a card that ends tonight and I change my mind an hour before the auction ends because I would rather spend the money on something else, why shouldn’t I be able to retract my bid?

All I am saying is that is should work both ways. It just seems like a double standard. Ebay is saying it’s okay for the seller to change their mind, but it’s not okay for the buyer to change their mind.

Because allowing buyer retractions would make the whole system unworkable. Only result of allowing seller retractions is a non-transaction.

[CW]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

Is gavel snipe and other snipe programs the final straw that will break ebays auction style listings for any good cards out there ?

No, I don't think so. First of all, eBay ruined their system years ago
when they started pushing sellers towards "buy it now" auctions by making
the fee structure favor those types of auctions. Secondly, snipe programs
have been around for a few years now -- I remember using esnipe back
in 2004-2005. Before sniping websites existed, I, and many other astute
collectors were sniping auctions manually with a stopwatch and a quick
mouse finger. No, many things have led to the demise of the auction
style listing, with sniping websites playing a minor role. I blame eBay
themselves for the demise of regular auction listings.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Because allowing buyer retractions would make the whole system unworkable. Only result of allowing seller retractions is a non-transaction.

I understand what you're saying and agree. But the system isn't working now if eBay is going to allow sellers to end auctions early just because they don't like where the current price is at. That's the whole point of this thread. I had one happen to me last week and I was pretty upset about it.

My suggestion is to not allow sellers to end auctions early (say within the last 12 hours). This would incude most items (yes, cards), but some things would have to be excluded. If anybody has a better idea, I'm all ears.

[barrysloate]

I blame the state of the economy. In better times sellers could almost count on a tremendous bid in the last few seconds, and a great final price, so auctions were rarely closed early. Today sellers are afraid of what the final price might be, so if their lots look like they may do poorly, they may just decide to close them. If the money is there the lots stay open. That has nothing to do with ebay, they're just the messenger.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I understand what you're saying and agree. But the system isn't working now if eBay is going to allow sellers to end auctions early just because they don't like where the current price is at. That's the whole point of this thread. I had one happen to me last week and I was pretty upset about it.

My suggestion is to not allow sellers to end auctions early (say within the last 12 hours). This would incude most items (yes, cards), but some things would have to be excluded. If anybody has a better idea, I'm all ears.

I don't really think this is a problem because ebay limits sellers to only 50 free listings per month. After that, sellers must pay an insertion fee based on the starting price of the item. The higher the starting price, the higher the insertion fee. Therefore if a seller ends an auction early, they either lose out on their freebie listing or they lose their insertion fee. This is how ebay tries to prevent sellers from ending early especially because we all know snipes are out there. What sellers do is to look at the current price and the # of watchers, and if there aren't enough watchers, they end the auction early because they likely won't get their price. Frankly, as I've had some auctions set all time lows for VCP by hundreds of dollars, I've been burned by the 99 cent start price and can completely understand seller rationale here.

[alanu]

I agree that's it's wrong for sellers to end auctions early if there are already bids on the item, but I find myself bidding on a lot of items using snipes that I wouldn't normally bid on because I' m busy during the ending time (at work, at a meeting, driving to or from work or asleep for those early ending east coast auctions) or if I'm out of town.

Also, I used to miss out on bidding on items just because I forgot about them and the actions ended before I got my bid in.

-Alan

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

Like Ozzy says 'Paranoia the destroyer' . I was waiting to put a nice hammer down and all of a sudden it ended, it was also doing ok. Another one that was ended was up five minutes later with a huge starting bid lol ! In the auction description it said 'bid with confidence' !

I was going to put this at the end, but realised the main bit of the post is rantish and it might be taken wrong
That's not actually Ozzy. It's from "destroyer" by the Kinks.

Anyway, Here's my harsh view of Ebay..

I think the biggest problem with Ebay is their "need" to attempt to continue double digit growth. After a period of time a business needs to stop acting like a startup and more like a blue chip. Steady growth, steady profits, halfway decent dividend. 15-16 years is well past that point.
In order to attract 10% more buyers each year they've put policies into place that favor the - For lack of a better term, stupid people. - The ones that have no concept of transit time, actual shipping costs, paying on time, actually reading the description, or looking at the picture. And the sellers they've attracted are the tailenders who would fail at anything because their idea of business is making 1% on something. Sometimes because they think any more is evil profiteering, sometimes because they just don't know any better. Then once the pinch is on they start doing stuff like cancelling auctions if it's not going their way. And that only makes the problem and their behavior worse.

Steve Birmingham
Who did apparently listen to too much of both Black Sabbath and the Kinks

[Jantz]

I've been seeing this also, except the 3 auctions ( 2 different sellers ) that I was watching ended shortly after they were listed. I think someone threw out an offer and the sellers pulled the auction and took the cash.

All 3 auctions were listed Sunday night and by late Monday afternoon they all had ended. Only one of the auctions had a current bid.

I've had auctions end early before, so this is nothing new for me, but never 3 in a 24 hour time span. Ironically, both sellers had multiple auctions running, but only a certain few of their auctions were ended early.


Jantz

[T206DK]

just had two auctions end this way for me. I don't get it

[53Browns]

It's time for my "stupid question" of the day. What is an auction snipe? Help? Thanks in advance!

~Bill

[Rich Klein]

That Barry or it might have been another dealer that when no bids come in on items earliy -- that could be a sign that there is no interest.

From the seller's view, I understand this totally, instead of risking a major loss thay cancel the item and go home.

WHat might work for BOTH sides is for a "middle ground" bid to be put in, that middle ground bid would show the seller that the items do have interest but you are still not tipping your hand as to how much you want to bid. If I were a seller and I had a item which usually sells for $100 and saw a $50-60 bid, I might let it continue to run. If I only see a $20-25 bid -- I might say enogh is enough and take the item off.

Regards
Rich

[mintacular]

What is an auction snipe? Help?--There are programs such as Gixen that I use whereby you can set a snipe or high bid on eBay auctions, sniping is perfectly legal/acceptable.

So if you see a 1954 Aaron you like with 6 days left or whatever and don't want to wait around you just simply place your snipe/high bid and the program will place your bid with 1-5 seconds left in the auction. This sniping allows you to place a bid at the last moment so no person will see your bid in enough time to counter it with a higher one. In theory you should win more auctions, and for a better price.

[insidethewrapper]

The sellers on Ebay should set a "Reserve" Minimum and not allowed to end their auction early. That's the purpose of a reserve.

Also, how to the snipe websites make money if it is free. Any problems with giving them your ebay password ? Thanks

[sports-rings]

a lot of the "good stuff" is no longer offered on ebay and has moved on to the auction houses. That's why I believe we are seeing so many new start up auction houses in our hobby.

I guess the times are a chagin'.

I still do check ebay everyday, but buy less and less.

And by the way, I hate that ebay is completely clogged with over-priced items that never sell!

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by sports-rings

And by the way, I hate that ebay is completely clogged with over-priced items that never sell!

I agree that there is a ton of overpriced merchandise on ebay. And I'll never understand that. It is SO EASY to determine the market value of most T206 cards (as an example), and the BINs are generally priced WAY ABOVE those prices. Just do a "completed listings" search of T206s BIN only and you'll see hundreds to thousands of unsold cards at ridiculous prices.

Personally, I've sold four BINs in the last ten days (and have a pending offer that I will likely take). All SGC60 commons in the $85-$105 range. Right now the average price of a common player/common back BIN SGC 60 T206 is $184.28... IMHO double the actual value. The median price is $200. These cards will never sell. It can't be worth the seller's time to continue to relist and manage the inventory at these prices. And ebay doesn't see (much) revenue from this practice either.

[uffda51]

As has been pointed out, ebay is not an auction house. They were founded by people who traded pez dispensers.

Any auction house publishes their bid increments, based on meaningful increases, in advance. No one can snipe an auction and win by outbidding the underbidder by a dollar or a penny. Ebay has never taken customer service seriously, nor shill bidding nor bogus items. Patient people can still find bargains there. I just don't have the patience to wade through the debris.

[insidethewrapper]

The sellers on ebay and ebay themselves would make more money if ebay would extend the auction by 1 minute everytime a bid is placed in the last minute similiar to what many of the auction houses currently do. This then would be a "true" auction. Bidders would then have an opportunity after a snipe bid.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

The sellers on Ebay should set a "Reserve" Minimum and not allowed to end their auction early. That's the purpose of a reserve.

Also, how to the snipe websites make money if it is free. Any problems with giving them your ebay password ? Thanks

Agree about reserves, sellers should use them instead. However there is a large population who have a fit when they see an auction has a reserve and refuse to bid on it. But admittedly, they should be used judiciously at, say 70%, of card value. Doesn't do anyone any good to set the reserve at where the BINs are at now.

I assume snipe websites make money by advertising.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

The sellers on ebay and ebay themselves would make more money if ebay would extend the auction by 1 minute everytime a bid is placed in the last minute similiar to what many of the auction houses currently do. This then would be a "true" auction. Bidders would then have an opportunity after a snipe bid.

As a buyer, I hope they don't do this. As a seller, I agree.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It seems that ebay is dying a slow death and doesn't care, so this tells me that the people at the top are cooking the books and filling their pockets with as much cash/bonus as possible so when the bottom falls out they can walk away with a mountain of cash and blame everyone else and leave any stock holders holding an empty bag of nothing.

[drc]

My feeling is sellers would use auctions more if they thought they'd get fair sales prices in return. I'm sure that after having a $200 item for for $9.99, many sellers aren't about to relay on those promises of magical snipes with 2 seconds left.

Buyers found a technique (last second snipes) to get the lowest price possible at auction, then are shocked and dismayed when auctioneers don't like selling things for the lowest price possible and choose to sell a different way.

Yes, I firmly believe that snipes are the main cause for the demise of auctions. I said this perhaps two years ago.

I also understand and appreciate that snipes help prevent being shilled, but snipes are still why auctions have died out on eBay. If you want to say snipes and shills were co conspirators, I'll go along with that.

[BCauley]

I don't blame sniping at all. I blame the problems that ebay has on ebay itself. I like to use them to dump things off quickly but actually find myself purchasing my vintage either through the B/S/T on here, dealer sites in the links above, or my new favorite, Joe's Vintage Cards.

[Hankphenom]

I'm having a hard time understanding most of the arguments being made here. For sellers, why not just protect yourself with a decent reserve? Then it's cost you little and now you can either try again or find another venue for your sale. If catalog auctions are so great, then use those even if you have to do some grouping. But now there are auctions that accept individual lots worth $100 or so. Or start doing shows. Or bring your stuff to a show and sell to a dealer. As for the argument that sniping eliminates the psychology that drives auction prices, can't you have two buyers who REALLY have to have something and leave enormous snipes that drive the final way beyond the third bid. I've seen this happen a lot in checking bidding histories on eBay. So gosh, the poor eBay sellers aren't getting what they want for their merchandise? Is it possible that they paid too much? Or that the economy sucks right now and very little moves like it used to? Or that they're pulling their stuff too early and losing some good last-minute bids? Nah, can't be those, it must be the sniping that's killing them. This just strikes me as the online equivalent of the show dealers who won't look at their customers, overprice horribly, don't know how to buy, won't work hard enough to get new stuff, then complain about what lousy shows they're having.

[hunterdutchess]

I think ebay should take note from Heritage and only post the reserve after the auction has ended. Most reserve auctions get little or no bids.

[Hankphenom]

Why in the world wouldn't reasonable reserves get bids?

[drc]

Ask the bidders not the sellers. Many bidders have long avoided bidding in auctions with reserves. Just the way it is.

[Rich Klein]

I know I've never bid on an auction with an reserve

Rich

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Why in the world wouldn't reasonable reserves get bids?

the key word is "Reasonable".

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I know I've never bid on an auction with an reserve

Rich

I agree as far as hidden reserves, I've never understood the value to the seller of those, and they can drive a buyer crazy. Use a minimum, or a stated reserve, or whatever you want to call it, if you want to protect your item. But tell us what it is, so we at least have an opportunity to match it.

[Railroad Bill]

The last couple of months I've been buying 5-10 PSA cards per month. This month I've only been able to buy 2 based on the same pattern of bidding. Seems like something has happened just recently to change the bidding.

[mintacular]

When I see reserve my first reaction is that seller probably has set it too high/has an unreal expectation like most BIN sellers....therefore why participate in bidding all week and probably never reaching the reserve? I would prefer that a seller open an auction with a lower min bid rather than a reserve

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by Railroad Bill

The last couple of months I've been buying 5-10 PSA cards per month. This month I've only been able to buy 2 based on the same pattern of bidding. Seems like something has happened just recently to change the bidding.

Have you been bidding on the same or similar number of auctions? I ask this question as I find myself saving fewer items to my watch list recently. But to be honest, I am very picky as to what I watch or bid on at EBay.

[Big Ben]

Originally Posted by mintacular

When I see reserve my first reaction is that seller probably has set it too high/has an unreal expectation like most BIN sellers....therefore why participate in bidding all week and probably never reaching the reserve? I would prefer that a seller open an auction with a lower min bid rather than a reserve

I very much agree with you when it comes to auctions with reserves. If I am interested in that item, I may save the item to my watch list for a good laugh. As for BIN, I agree that most are overpriced, but I have also been able to find a fair share of fair deals as well.

[nolemmings]

If it's a card I really want (but don't HAVE to have), I will bid about 60% of my snipe price early to mid-auction, which I figure is a reasonable seller's reserve. If I get chased or even shilled to that bid, I still figure I came out way ahead, plus the seller does not have to wait until the last moments with the fear he's going to take it in the shorts. Then I have the snipe waiting if needed.

[doug.goodman]

Sniping hasn't killed ebay,

Ebay has killed ebay.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by mintacular

When I see reserve my first reaction is that seller probably has set it too high/has an unreal expectation like most BIN sellers....therefore why participate in bidding all week and probably never reaching the reserve? I would prefer that a seller open an auction with a lower min bid rather than a reserve

When I see auctions with reserves for an item that I'm interested in, the first thing that I do is to email the seller asking what the reserve is. Frankly, half of the time, the reserve is reasonable, and the other half it's way high. You never know until you ask. For example, the recent M101-5 Ruth rookie PSA 4 that sold on ebay had a reserve of 15K, which the seller said he put at because it was a bit under SMR for that card. I was praying that I would somehow luck into this card because ppl would avoid bidding because of the reserve so I set a snipe at 18K. It ended up selling for $28K to someone else.

[deadballera]

Doug was right....eBay has killed ebay!!


Solution for reserves...since eBay has now the 50 free listings with any start value, just place the minimum amount as the starting bid.

[CW]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Sniping hasn't killed ebay,

Ebay has killed ebay.

Yep, agree wholeheartedly.

Let's face it... baseball cards are a fairly small niche market for
eBay, both in terms of revenue and number of items. Snipes don't
even play a factor in over 80% of eBay's "auctions", and that's
just how eBay wants it. They've pissed off enough power sellers
over the years with increased fees, not to mention their abolition
of sellers being able to leave negative feedback. Plus, you've got
more competition for eBay these days, especially with the emergence
of Craigslist in the mid-2000's.

Sniping has played a minor role in the demise of the regular auction,
and the demise of eBay in general.

[doug.goodman]

Sniping has nothing to do with hurting ebay. Sniping is the most logical way for a bidder to win for a little as possible, which is the buyer's goal, in any auction. Bid at the very last second, because your competition may have fallen asleep, left for dinner, gone to pick up the kids from practice, etc.

When I snipe, I snipe with the highest amount that I am willing to pay, knowing full well that I will not get a second chance, that sounds like it's a pretty good thing for the seller, a buyer giving him his highest price. I'm not haggling, I'm not trying to be crafty or tricky, I don't have time for that, it's a snipe. I snipe in every auction I participate in. I sniped in the CCA29 auction last night. It works for me, and based on my winnings, I assume that it worked for John and Judy. If it didn't, well then they should have set they opening bids higher. In at least one case, that would have meant that the item I won wouldn't have attracted a bid.

In the days when ebay was an auction site and not an overpriced window shopper's paradise, if you had an item that you felt was worth X, and you were willing to part with it for no less than Y, you put it on auction with a starting bid of $1 and a reserve of Y.

The final bid was a number that we will call Z and define as "the market value".

If the Z < Y then you either put your item back in your closet, or you contacted the high bidder (or he contacted you) and a deal was made (or wasn't).

If Z > Y then everybody was happy.

All this whining about sellers taking down auctions because there wasn't enough action early is just that, whining.

As a buyer, if a seller took an auction down, bummer, on to the next one.

As a seller, yes, I will admit to a being worried that my non-reserve price items sometimes scared me on that last day, but that is what is called "the cost of doing business" if you don't like it, then don't sell stuff in an auction, instead sell it at a yardsale with retail price tags, so that 99% of the people walking on your lawn will ignore it but maybe, just maybe, some dork will fork over the cash.

Wow - sounds like I just described the majority of the baseball related items on ebay today.

Ok, enough of my ranting, time to get ready for my Dodgers to look like crap again...

Doug