T214 Victory Tobacco container?

[rman444]

From the research that I have done, the TC Williams Tobacco Company, which operated out of Richmond, Virginia, was acquired by the British-American Tobacco Company in 1903. It continued to operate under its name as a subsidiary of the BAT for many years after, even when the BAT fell under the ATC umbrella.

When the ATC was broken up in 1911, the Liggett and Myers Company was one of the principle companies formed. Among its many former branches of the ATC, L&M owned directly the W R Irby Branch in New Orleans (known for its ties with the T216 products). It also owned at least one factory in the Richmond, Virginia area, although I cannot find any specific mention of the TC Williams company.

The relationship between the various post-trust tobacco companies is muddy at best and full of backroom deals and partnerships. It was common for subsidiaries of the original ATC and its rivals to sell tobacco leaf to each other and I don't imagine it would be a stretch to say that originating factories for the various end products would often be intertwined as well. I have found references stating that the "American Tobacco Company" is the successor to the TC Williams company, although I cannot pinpoint if this is prior to the breakup of the trust, or after when the ATC was a slimmed down version of its prior self.

Anyway, I am proposing this possible scenario:

After the TC Williams company was bought by the BAT in 1903 and absorbed into the ATC trust, it was possibly part of what was spun off under the Liggett and Myers umbrella in 1911. L&M also owned the Irby factories of La, which shared tobacco leaf with all of its owned subsidiaries at the time. If the TC Williams Victory Tobacco was under the L&M umbrella with Irby, then its tobacco and cards may have originated from Louisiana. TC Williams was originally founded in 1850 and may have had a stronger brand recognition due to company history and its original factory location in Richmond, VA. In addition, evidence shows that one location that the TC Williams "Victory Tobacco" was marketed was in Australia. Liggett & Myers may have drawn from TC Williams' original relationship with the BAT (Imperial Tobacco Company of Great Britain) when looking for methods to distribute overseas, especially in the areas with strong British ties (western Australia).

[canjond]

Very interesting tin. While it is unknown what the exact distribution packaging for T214 is, I have always assumed the packaging was somewhat similar to the below. Note, the below pack has a 1914 overprint on the tax stamp:

[slidekellyslide]

Jon, how hard to find and about what price do the Victory tobacco pouches go for? I bid on one recently in a non-ebay auction, but was outbid.

Thanks,
Dan

[jimonym]

I believe T.C. Williams operated two facilities in Richmond, both closing sometime between 1895 and 1905. One was on South 7th Street at Arch (later renamed Overton) Street. The other on South 6th Street at East Canal Street. Sanborn maps for 1905 show the 7th Street property as owned and operated under the R.A. Patterson name. The 6th Street structure was being used as a shoe warehouse by the W.H. Miles Shoe Company. As you probably know, R.A. Patterson was owned by the ATC but was operated as a subsidiary and continued to use the R.A. Patterson name.

The ATC had several products carrying the Victory brand name. Below are images from an ATC Jobber's Price List from 1909. I don't believe the "Where Made" column is necessarily definitive. The ATC did have locations that specialized in products made from specific kinds of leaf, but they manufactured so much product that multiple locations may well have been producing the same brands.

[Leon]

Great stuff guys. I love the origins of our cards talk. But as a pack/ephemera collector I guess that is to be expected. Here are a few cards to go with the ancillary items...

[canjond]

Dan - the pouches come up for sale every once in a while. I can't say I see them everyday, but I see one for sale maybe every 4-6 months or so... In terms of pricing - I think it all depends who's bidding. I think I picked the one I have pictured above up for $50 or so. I have seen some sell over $100. Recently, there was a full one for sale in an advertising auction. I wanted to bid but sold over $500.

[Leon]

This is the classic case of supply vs demand equals value. Rman's tin is infinitely scarcer than a type of a T214, though I do put them in fairly high "rarity" air vis-a-vis their abundance. I believe even a nice common T214 baseball card would go for multiples of those estimates in today's hobby, even though they aren't as scarce (again, if only looking for a type). regards

[Bridwell]

Here's a Victory cigarette pack wrapper. It shows T.C. Williams and the overseas connection that rman was suggesting.

[ethicsprof]

gorgeous pics and interesting theories.
now i realize i need a T214 to add to my packs collection!

best,
barry

[rman444]

Thanks for adding more information and images everyone. I have never seen that Victory pack wrapper before. Very cool!

The Victory pouch that Jon shows above comes from Factory 39, Dist NC and states that the product is from "The American Tobacco Co. Successor to Brown Bros. Co. Made in America" (assuming that my pouch is the same as Jon's). These pouches may be what is referred to as "Victory Granulated" in Jimonym's post above - middle price list. I actually have an unused pack of the cigarette papers that are mentioned in the price list. I just have to remember where I put them

[canjond]

I believe you are correct regarding the pouch but don't have it in front of me to check. I've never been able to figure out what product came out of Factory #8, however.

Originally Posted by rman444

I actually have an unused pack of the cigarette papers that are mentioned in the price list. I just have to remember where I put them

Hope you didnt use them by accident

Very cool stuff. Now is it possible that this tin is the way they were distributed? Just like the PB cards from T205's and 206's that have tobacco stains were determined to have been the only card issue issued in tobacco pouches for 206's and 205's. Since there was possibly a wax wrapper on it. It would have protected the card from staining right???

[Bridwell]

Here's another Victory Tin. It has about a 3 inch diameter and is about 1.5 inches deep. Note the T. C. Williams label on the bottom: