T215 (Red Cross) issue mystery....can anyone explain ?

[tedzan]

This set is identified as a Louisiana issue in the Standard Catalog; however, the bottom line on the Red Cross
back states......." Factory #10, 5th Dist. N.J. "



This was a major factory of the Pierre Lorillard Tobacco Co. in Jersey City, NJ

Sounds like a Joisey Tobacco issue to me..........

So, how and when did this set become a Louisiana Tobacco issue ?

Clue me in guys.....because this really mystifies me ? ?


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- I just checked the back of the T207 Red Cross and that too is New Jersey.

[Baseball Rarities]

Ted,

I think that people have always known that Red Cross cards had a New Jersey factory on the back, but I think that several of the larger "original" finds of these cards were in Louisiana.

[FrankWakefield]

What Kevin said is the deal.

Mr. Lipset describes the Red Cross cards as being from Louisiana. He mentions the New Jersey factory designation, and notes that that has nothing to do with where the cards "are" actually found. Seems that would be a "were" in the present times. Thanks to card shows, dealers, and the internet, cards are no longer solely found where they were distributed. The last ZeeNut I bought did not come to me from someone in California... Ball cards have become migratory little rascals...

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
great detective work, as always!
i've been reading through Burdick's ACC again and again, seeking some narrative that might illuminate this enigma a bit.
The best i can come up with is in section 6 of 20th Century U.S. Tobacco Insert Cards: "Many were distributed in only one area of the country,such as
the Pacific Coast issues of Obaks,Sultans, Grand Duke, Imperiales, Kopec, Pets, and Mono. In Louisiana were Coupon, Red Sun, Kotton, Victory, and
Mino. "
No mention of Red Cross in Louisiana.
I think Frank has it when he says colloquially yet poignantly:
'Ball cards have become migratory little rascals.....'
We imputed Louisiana to New Jersey and imputed it over and over again 'til
we finally believed it without question or even noticing, until now.
And Burdick in his always pithy 'narrative' knew it all along.

best,
barry

[tedzan]

Thanks, I appreciate your responses......but, I also appreciate the significance of the Factory system of the American Tobacco Co.
Coupon, Red Sun, and Victory Cigarettes were produced in Factory #3, or #8 (Victory brand)....District of Louisiana.

The T216 cigarettes were not part of ATC, they were a British product (also, the T216 cards were printed by American Caramel).





Therefore, if Red Cross cards were found in Louisiana, they most likely "migrated" (I like that, Frank) by some Northeast guy(s), who
moved to the Bayou country.
Either a retiree, or some one disgruntled by the excessive Joisey taxes (even back then)

Incidently, do we know of any Red Cross finds in the Northeast ?


Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I've known Lew Lipset since 1981 and have great respect for his knowledge and contributions to the hobby.
Having said all that and having enjoyed some very nice vintage card deals that I have acquired from Lew, I
question his "Louisiana issue" regarding the Red Cross cards.

In my time, I have been fortunate to acquire 5 "original finds" of which only one of them did not "migrate"....
A 400+ T206 collection (all PIEDMONT) from South Carolina.

The other 4 were collections that did "migrate" are........

286 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Erie, PA

177 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Hartford, CT

122 different SOVEREIGN T206's from Georgia

200+ assorted SWEET CAPORAL (Factory 30, NY) T206's from Florida

Obviously, the SOVEREIGN's are Factory #25, VA....and, I offer these examples as an argument opposing the
T215's classified as a "Louisiana issue".....perhaps, based on one find (or two).

Your thoughts, please ?


TED Z

[toppcat]

Can't somebody that knows him just e-mail or phone Lipset? It sounds to me like he made a mistake is all but who knows (other than Lew)?

[drdduet]

As in a previous thread, research revealed that Mr. Burdick in the ACC, Lipset in his encyclopedia, and The Standard Catalog all refer to the issue as being a Louisiana regional issue. Burdick does it in his introduction to tobacco cards, if I remember correctly, as well as in his classification scheme.

Hobby history tells us this, but why? Is there evidence/documentation of the Louisiana finds of Red Cross? or is it hobby lore? Do any of you recollect a find in Louisiana?

Interesting.

[drdduet]

1901: Strong anti-cigarette activity in 43 of the 45 states.
"[O]nly Wyoming and Louisiana had paid no attention to the cigarette controversy, while
the other forty-three states either already had anti-cigarette laws on the books, were
considering new or tougher anti-cigarette laws, or were the scenes of heavy anti- cigarette
activity" (Dillow, 1981:10).

1909: 15 states have passed legislation banning the sale of cigarettes.

1910: Because of the heavy use of the inexpensive cigarette by immigrants, New York accounts
for 25% of all cigarette sales.

1911: BUSINESS: THE INDUSTRY IN 1911:
Duke's American Tobacco Co. controls 92% of the world's tobacco business.
Leading National Brand: Fatima, (first popular brand to be sold in 20-unit packs; 15 cents) from Liggett & Myers, a Turkish/domestic blend. Most popular in Eastern urban areas. Other Turkish/domesitc competitors: Omar (ATC); Zubelda (Lorillard); Even the straight domestic brands were seasoned with a sprinkling of Turkish, like Sweet Caporals (originally made for F.S. Kinney and later for American Tobacco)
Leading Brand in Southeast: Piedmont, an all-Bright leaf brand.
Leading Brand in New Orleans: Home Run, (5 cents for 20) an all-Burley leaf brand.

During the early years, cigarette advertising was more sophisticated than many imagine.
The American Tobacco Company advertised aggressively and contributed to the rapid rise
in cigarette smoking. Advertising was commonly in print or at point of sale, especially with
sophisticated window displays made up of empty packages. Barns visible from rail lines
had advertising painted on them; fences were plastered with large posters; and billboards
and streetcars were used to advertise products. Associating a brand with special events was
another technique. For example, Pall Mall, a cigarette for the elite, was promoted in concert
and gala programs. Another promotional technique was the use of stunts, such as the
Red Cross tobacco brand — yes, Red Cross — in 1903 sponsoring a person dressed up as
a Red Cross package crossing Quebec’s Montmorency waterfalls on a high wire, an event
witnessed by a reported 30 000 people. The package featured the international Red Cross
symbol: a red cross on a white background. Red Cross was one of the most heavily advertised
brands in Canada. Other promotional activities included parades on city streets, balloon
ascents, and parachute drops.

Just some tidbits to maybe get some leads... I find it interesting that a Google search of "Red Cross Tobacco" gets many hits from Canadian articles, including a 1915 article from a Montreal newspaper explaining that the Red Cross won a court battle and Red Cross tobacco brand changed its name to Blue Cross.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Can't somebody that knows him just e-mail or phone Lipset? It sounds to me like he made a mistake is all but who knows (other than Lew)?

Great idea. I know Lew, a little. I like him. I will NOT be calling him to tell him he made a mistake.

[drdduet]

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From a newspaper advertisement from Michigan in 1917.

[tedzan]

Perhaps, I'll contact Lew and see what he has to say regarding the T215's.


TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

I think Mr. Lipset got it right.

The few T215s that were around were primarily in the hands of Louisiana collectors. The cards were found there. When I bought a bunch of Old Mill red border cards, about a third of them were series 6. I think the guy I got them from got them from a collector who bought them from the family of the original collector from years ago, and he was a Kentuckian. That's why most of the cards were series 6 Blue Grass League cards, so I then thought, and continue to think.

I don't have a Mono tobacco card. Wish I did, missed my best chance on getting one at a modest cost 25 years ago, or so. My understanding is that they have no factory designation on the back. Also, a generation ago, most T217 Mono's were in California. I don't necessarily think that remains true today. There may well be more there than any other state, but many have wandered out into the hands of other collectors.

I think Louisiana is where the T215s were distributed, I think that's where second generation collectors found them... and now they're spread over creation.

[jimonym]

I wonder if at some point there wasn't a conflation of Red Cross and Red Sun.

There's some documentary evidence that the brands produced by the W.R. Irby Branch of the American Tobacco Company in New Orleans (of which Red Sun was one) were chiefly distributed in Louisiana, Texas, and surrounding areas. Prior to selling out to the ATC in 1899, Irby was primarily a producer of cigars, cigarettes and snuff and that product line stayed pretty much the same afterward.

P. Lorillard had a huge factory in Jersey City, and had no factory in Louisiana. But products were shipped by rail all over the place of course. Here's an ad for a Salt Lake City grocer from 1888, and he's offering Lorilliard's Red Cross tobacco for sale.

[FrankWakefield]

I can see a distinction between Red Cross tobacco packages and Red Cross tobacco cards. There may well have been ball cards in all Red Cross packages. Ball cards might have been put in the packages to compete on a regional basis.

Anecdotal history that I've heard is consistent with what Mr. Burdick and Mr. Lipset have. I think the T215 cards were distributed in Red Cross cigarette packages in Louisiana about 99 years ago. And for years most of the cards turned up in Louisiana.

I have one, it is in Kentucky. I bought it from Mr. Lipset about 20 years ago, when he was in New York. I think that card was printed in New York, delivered to a factory in New Jersey, packaged with cigarettes in a Red Cross tobacco package, shipped to Louisiana, and then the package was sold to a consumer.