Even the so called good guys...ugly hobby?

[wonkaticket]

I thought I would bring to light to the members of this forum a chain of emails I was privy too as of recent that I found very disturbing.

I was forwarded these emails because the content had direct discussions about me. I don’t care to get into full detail as I think it has little bearing on the real issue that lay within the email string which was accidentally sent.

Basically Scott Elkins had issues with me being involved as a key member of the Chan investigation and felt I was taking undo credit. This is of course silly as I was the direct link to the FBI and it was my inspection of the cards which gave the needed evidence to visit Mr. Chan which of course lead to the snowballing of unfortunate events regarding him and the site T206museum.com.

I was very clear on the team effort in my post which can be seen here.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112134

I have no explanation as to why Mr. Elkins has issue with a positive thing done by a team of collectors for the good of the hobby but clearly he does.



It’s very clear that Mr. Elkins has issue with me and others which is very apparent by browsing his site above. I have no doubt he harbors anger with me as he has made all too clear. I have had my shots all chicken shots but he has had more than enough payback and I’m fine with it. I have little doubt a lot of this comes from the banning from Full Count in which I had nothing to do with the moderators made that move. It just happened Scott and I were in the mix at the time. While I find a lot of the stuff as vile venting and uncalled for vulgarity and false accusations he does have his rights to speak free as do we.


HOWEVER I ASK ALL OF A YOU A PERSONAL FAVOR I DON’T WANT THIS TO BE THREAD ABOUT SHOTS ABOUT ELKINS AND CHICKENS/UNDERPRINTS ETC. SO PLEASE CHECK THOSE AT THE DOOR PLEASE. I DON’T WANT THE REAL PURPOSE OF THIS POST TO BE LOST IN THE MIX OF CHEAP HUMOR WHICH I’M GULITY OF MYSELF FROM TIME TO TIME.


Recently on the other main baseball card forum (Full Count) Kevin Saucier insinuated that what we had done as a team Jim, Dan, Rob, FBI and I was not really needed as he assumed it was common knowledge to him and not worthy of discussing.

"Perhaps I am a little naive but I thought most collectors knew they were altered. I saw them on the t206museum was immediately suspicious and never really followed them. Considered it somewhat of a joke and a no-brainer. Feel the same about most of the stamped backed cards. Just "way" too easy to do!Now that I read the stories I am shocked to find that collectors were spending serious money these overprints. Hope they all get their money back."

Jim and Dan and myself disagreed Kevin did return and apologize that it was not meant in that way etc. Which we accept or at least I do as I will not speak for Dan and Jim.

Now that you have a bit of background we can move to the point of my post.

Kevin Saucier had recently emailed Scott Elkins asking him if he could ask Jim and Dan to lay off him.



----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin S.
To: Scott Elkins
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: He's at it again!

Perhaps you can send a quick email to Dan and Jim so they can get off the Wonka brow beat Kevin band wagon. I expect this kind of stuff from Jon but not from Dan.

I am just trying to fly below the radar and keep a very low profile. Besides they have no idea what I did or did not know about the investigation of this card.

Oh...btw, outstanding job! You and Jim are the guys who really did all the work.

__________________________________________________ ____________


This is crazy because I only responded after Jim and Dan responded and we all basically said the same thing. If he knew all along why not bring it up etc.

Here’s where this gets very scary to myself and many others I have run this by.

In the same email Scott forwarded from Kevin he left the full string of emails between Scott and Kevin dating as far back as April 2nd 2008. Upon reading the entire string I was shocked to read the following string and almost fell out of my chair with disgust and shock!


________________________________________
From: joejackson1919@comcast.net
To: onlychild@hotmail.com
Subject: T206
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:42:15 -0700

Hi Kevin,
I hope all is well your way! I was wondering if you are still inspecting cards for people. I have a T206 with a United Cigars ad on the back that is printed UNDER the Sweet Caporal ad. Anyway, to make a long story short, some of the Net 54ers are trying to say it is printed OVER the ad and simply a back stamp overprint.
I was wondering if I could send this card to you if it does not sell and get your opinion on it - overprint or underprint? I will pay whatever fee is associated with the service.
Here is a link to the auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160277961170
Thanks in advance!
Scott Elkins

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin S.
To: Scott
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: T206
Hi Scott,

Yeah I looking at that thread yesterday. Those guys are beyond cruel. Got pissed reading that whole mess.

Sure I'll look at it. I don't charge anything, never have...and I've looked at thousands of cards. Collectors are funny, those that send cards regularly show gratitude in other ways because they know I won't take a cent....I'm just glad I can help!

Good timing, last year or so I have been studying T206 backs and the printing. Just send it over, I'll give you an honest opinion:

All the best,
Kevin
__________________________________________________ _____________________
From: joejackson1919@comcast.net
To: onlychild@hotmail.com
Subject: Close Up
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 18:20:01 -0700
Kevin,
Here is a close up I just took at 800% with my scanner. I am going to try and post this pic in the auction (if it is not too large for eBay). One should definitely be able to tell more about the back with this pic (fingers crossed it works on eBay!).
Best Regards,
Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin S.
To: Scott
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:12 PM
Subject: RE: Close Up
Scott,

And here I thought you liked me because I'm a disabled AF vet.

I think it's safe to say that the word "clowns" should be replaced with "assholes". Before they judge others, some should take a good long look in the mirror.

Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it .

Have to say with that close up scan, it's looking very favorable. I can see the SC over the cigar print. I'll save my final opinion for when I see it live but it looks like a no-brainer.

Some friendly advice...perhaps you should tone down your ebay listing with less personal statements. Wouldn't want to see it pulled or give them more fuel for the fire. Just a thought.

All the best,

Kevin
________________________________________

From: joejackson1919@comcast.net
To: onlychild@hotmail.com
Subject: This has your name written all over it!
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:55:06 -0700

Hee Hee
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvind...7607705122913/
Regards,
Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin S.
To: joejackson1919@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: This has your name written all over it!

Hi Scott,

I wish...but no. Although I can make many or some of the colors disappear and come close, I don't know of a way to keep the yellows, name, borders and the light shades. Yellow ink is about the 2nd to go. I've tried man many times to recreate this and can't come close to the detail.

Kevin
________________________________________





IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, THIS IS THE PART YOU NEED TO READ VERY CAREFULLY!

“Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it .”
Kevin Saucier

It is no secret that myself and many others have questioned Kevin as to his motives and open interest in altered cards. Kevin has always taken the stance that this is for the good of the hobby and done to educate the collectors. For the most part we all have accepted that some including myself have asked why Kevin’s opinion should count over that of the established businesses such as SGC and PSA. Some have also asked why the overall secrecy and nebulous nature of his posts.

Here are my main issues which I would like to see Kevin address here right away? As this has a scary parallel to Chan showing off work, hyping activities etc. Although Chan did this from anonymity vs. Kevin in here and in our faces.


1. Why would Kevin if he is a good guy admit to planting if you will fraudulent or altered cards in select individual’s collections? Not only saying it’s been done but explains that there was cost involved and this was a directed attack at certain individuals.



2. When Scott laughed and asked if the current card which happens to be in the collection of a fellow board member was a creation of Kevin’s. Why did Kevin reply “I wish” above he wishes he was responsible for fraudulent activities and doctored cards to fellow collectors why?


I have provided many past links of discussion that have been about Kevin and his services/talents or that he has been a major part of.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...206+or+others-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+Kevin+Saucier

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ill+be+in+luck.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...e+1933+Goudeys

Talks about cards he altered getting past graders...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...-+Adding+Value

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...at+to+look+for

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+caramel+cards

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ier+Has+Spoken



Facts, openly admits to doctoring cards and placing them into the hobby and certain collections. Has been a self proclaimed expert has reviewed peoples valuable collections and items. Has continually offered services to major auction houses.


When the original recipient of the email brought up the quote the response from Kevin was that the comment was an innocent inside joke about Harris cards I own…I find this absurd I own 2 Harris cards and have openly discussed them here

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...A+8+for+review


This was an unsolicited admission not a joke IMO. Please collectors be aware that it’s not always the folks in the shadows that can be up to no good.

Now I have no proof Kevin has done this short of his admission above but that alone begs the question why would one ever say such a thing?

Unless Kevin has a real good explanation I’m very cautious of him and what he may have leaked out into the hobby as of today based on those comments. But I am willing to hear Kevin out and await his response as I ask all of us to do.

Cheers,

John

[ullmandds]

Eek gads...here we go!

This hobby...like the game it's modeled after...has always been great...and has always had an ugly side...and always will when large amounts of money...and ego are involved.

pu

[slidekellyslide]

An ugly situation turns much uglier. This is definitely a buyer beware hobby and if anything the last few weeks/months has taught us that it's far more important to do your own homework and not rely on the grading companies. I think it's time to assume a good number of cards in this hobby have been altered and are already residing in holders. The obvious fakes (to those with knowledge) ie the black OM overprints and the T206 Doyle PSA have to mean that many other not so obvious cards have also slipped past the graders. That's an ugly admission from Kevin and I sure hope it was said in bravado and there's not truth to it.

ugh.

[prewarsports]

And you guys are always knocking memorabilia and autographs for their shadyness. This is crazy stuff. I think the sad truth is that it permeates all area of the hobby and probably all hobbies where money is involved.

I was talking on the phone to a former major leaguer that collects the other day (not cards) and he had no idea there was even all this stuff going on because he had never been on the forum. It blew him away that there was so much corruption in the hobby.

Rhys

[V117collector]

Wow... that's sure is a lot of information

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

And you guys are always knocking memorabilia and autographs for their shadyness. This is crazy stuff. I think the sad truth is that it permeates all area of the hobby and probably all hobbies where money is involved.

Great point and so true. It's everywhere. Sadly.

[HRBAKER]

"Great point and so true. It's everywhere. Sadly."

Anywhere money is (and great amounts of it), "it" is too. I fear a much higher % of graded cards are altered than any of us would like to believe. It is sort of like the "steroids" of card collecting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

" I fear a much higher % of graded cards are altered than any of us would like to believe. It is sort of like the "steroids" of card collecting.

And yet we keep buying, don't we? Perhaps addiction enhances the capacity for self-deception (e.g., "I'm careful, it won't happen to ME")

[onlychild]

Nope never did it...that's the truth. Was just venting in anger one day and told a white-lie to Scott. Which, with your current (and past) attacks, is easy to see why. BTW...posting personal emails, regardless of the subject matter, is just uncalled for.

I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to get a specific card through to someone. I have no idea where anyone lives, let alone know them personally.

Sorry to disappoint but to the best of my knowledge, none are in the hobby. All the doctored cards I made are either in my personal collection marked "altered" or with Mike Baker labeled as "altered." Was just mouthing off in a heated moment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This may go against the prevailing view, but I don't like the notion of reproducing private emails, even with good intentions. Not only does it seem to me to violate the privacy of the sender, but it is very easy to misinterpret what is said in such communications or at the very least take them out of context. It IS a rule here for a good reason in my view.

[calvindog]

Peter, you might have a decent point if it were Elkins who posted the email: clearly Kevin meant for his discussions about committing fraud on Net 54 members to remain private between the two of them. Once Elkins released it to others, what obligation did John have to keep it private? And surely Kevin's stated desire to defraud Net 54 members trumps any privacy interest of his.

Plus I'm sure the many highly trained lawyers who post on Net 54 would be rushing to Kevin's side to file a lawsuit if such a claim existed. But of course we both know that won't happen.

Finally, Kevin came on here and gave his explanation so all's well that ends well. I would suggest to Kevin that instead of whining about his private email being splashed here for all to see he should probably come up with a better explanation as to why he felt it appropriate to write about his glee in defrauding Net 54 members -- and his disappointment over not defrauding me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think there is even a ghost of a legal issue. Whether it is right is another matter.

[calvindog]

See my paragraph one just above.

[wonkaticket]

For the record I was asked to be sent this email from Elkins he had Dan McKee forward on his thoughts about something and he just happened to foward on this email to me.

This email was addressed to me not sent under the table....

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am sure all of us have said things in emails that, if taken out of context and published on message boards, would not make us look pretty. This is not to excuse Kevin (although I continue to be highly skeptical he actually did anything along the lines he was speaking about) but to make a broader point that I don't think people should publish private emails, even if their intentions are good.