PSA Guarantee on a doctored card

[aljurgela]

I really do not know or understand your case, but I just thought that I would share my experience. Best of luck on resolution, seems like a tough one.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by raulus

Thanks for sharing. Glad to see that you ended up with a great result. At the same time, it just makes me a bit more irritated that they didn't seem willing to go there with my card.

I suppose there's always the possibility that the BODA investigator got it wrong, although the detail provided by BODA seems awfully convincing, so it's hard to feel real confident that PSA isn't just gaslighting me.

Not to me it doesn't. There are too many differences.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think my biggest misgiving about that approach is knowing that whoever buys it is likely to flip it, but without disclosure, to a buyer who would likely be oblivious to the history.

So I would be enriching someone willing to go there, and sticking someone else with it who doesn't realize that it's tainted.

Much respect for your thought process and integrity!

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not to me it doesn't. There are too many differences.

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post correctly. Based on this image, the edges are fingerprinted as the same card. The rough cut wear is in exactly the same places.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I don't want to offend anyone or break any terms of services, so I changed the username and profile pic.

You get a pass on your name because of what you do. But be careful per the rules too...So far so good. Please keep outing and keeping track of altered cards. Go BODA go...
.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Interesting that he has been exposed as a liar on here. Which makes me wonder why anyone would believe anything he says?

I’m glad you enjoy the database. It is an educational tool to help collectors find out more information about a card quickly and easily.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can remain anonymous UNLESS you keep calling people out. IF you do this again, it's going to be a problem. We want you on this site but you can't get into personal arguments like this and calling people names. If someone called you a liar wouldn't you want to know who they are?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by raulus

Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

Have you decided on what you are going to do with this card?

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I may be in the minority, but those comparisons aren't really that good. There are some spots that just don't match up between the two grades. As a matter of fact, in the box with the player below the word "Inside Baseball", there is a spot that isn't on the '7' that magically appears on the 8.5. Why would someone add a spot like that?? I'm not convinced that is the same card.

I’m mostly a lurker here and have been following this discussion - for whatever it’s worth, I had this exact same reaction.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Have you decided on what you are going to do with this card?

I'm still weighing my options.

I realize that inquiring minds need to know, and dammit, we need action!

But I'm not seeing the need to move quickly here. I do have the card back from PSA now, and it's resting in its former place of glory in my primary display case with my other mainline Mays base cards, although I continue to glare at it suspiciously every time I pass by it, just for good measure.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Leon

You can remain anonymous UNLESS you keep calling people out. IF you do this again, it's going to be a problem. We want you on this site but you can't get into personal arguments like this and calling people names. If someone called you a liar wouldn't you want to know who they are?

Just for clarification, I didn’t call anyone out. I have only responded to conversations that were directed at me. G1911 called out a person for repeated lies. A person that repeated lies is referred to as a liar. Therefore, I responded to G1911 and did not mention that person by name.

I appreciate the warning and will do better to ensure that I am following the rules. Thank you for allowing me to use your platform.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post correctly. Based on this image, the edges are fingerprinted as the same card. The rough cut wear is in exactly the same places.

Look at the dot that magically appears under his outstretched arm with the glove on the 8.5. Why is it not there under the 7?

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Look at the dot that magically appears under his outstretched arm with the glove on the 8.5. Why is it not there under the 7?

That really could be something on the slab or scanner and not on the card. But definitely worth figuring out as it is a noticeable difference.

[Prince Hal]

What/Who is BODA?

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

That really could be something on the slab or scanner and not on the card. But definitely worth figuring out as it is a noticeable difference.

Exactly. It’s very difficult to compare scans of cards. Even the same company can use different scanners with different settings (contrast, brightness, etc…) . Then you transfer those raw images (usually .Tiff) onto the Internet (as compressed .jpg) and the pictures further change. Then factor popular features like animated GIF & ability to pinch and zoom on mobile devices, the images get further distorted (certain areas of the card look stretched out even when overlayed). All this before you factoring things like dust.

My only advice is to never trust online images unless there are 100% identification marks. The latter suggestion is something the card altering hobby watchdogs need to realize soon before posting on social media and tagging all the grading companies (to get certs inactivated). Identifying altering cards isn’t as easy as it used to be with new technology

If you need help, reach out to me. I’m a 25 year IT programming veteran who used to work with Adobe on PDFs (the same type of coding logic used for pictures).

Here’s a quick example of the same card that I crossed-over from SGC to PSA. Both are PSA scans. Look at the huge differences.

[JustinD]

*double post

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

What/Who is BODA?

It's a group on Blowout dedicated to researching and identifying doctored and regraded cards. They do good work for the hobby in my perspective.

BODA - "Blowout Detective Agency"

Tiffany Cards posting on this thread (I assume this is the same person as the site) maintains a database of all identified doctored cards for purchasers.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

Again, an asset to buyers like myself who care...likely hated by doctors.

[bobbyw8469]

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

Originally Posted by JustinD

It's a group on Blowout dedicated to researching and identifying doctored and regraded cards. They do good work for the hobby in my perspective.

BODA - "Blowout Detective Agency"

Tiffany Cards posting on this thread (I assume this is the same person as the site) maintains a database of all identified doctored cards for purchasers.

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

Again, an asset to buyers like myself who care...likely hated by doctors.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

Then that evidence it’s wrong should be aired. Expecting 100% perfection when dealing with sample sizes of many thousands is just a roundabout way of trying not to do the thing. They have done a great job, much better than the purported experts selling their authority.

[perezfan]

Even with the “huge differences” in the Chico Fernandez card shown in post 114, one can easily (and immediately) determine that it’s the same exact card.

The number of mistakes BODA has made can probably be counted on one hand. And they’ve called out hundreds (if not thousands) of alterations residing in numbered slabs.

[JollyElm]

Aside from all the matching white wear on the edges, that small, white angled slash 'pointing' to the bottom right corner really serves as a telltale sign with this particular card. That is a unique feature here, as I looked at a crapload of these cards to see if it was a recurring print anomaly (which would at least open up the possibility of the 'before' and 'after' cards being different), but found no other examples.

Originally Posted by swarmee

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Even with the “huge differences” in the Chico Fernandez card shown in post 114, one can easily (and immediately) determine that it’s the same exact card.

The number of mistakes BODA has made can probably be counted on one hand. And they’ve called out hundreds (if not thousands) of alterations residing in numbered slabs.

The mistakes will get more frequent because of relying on scans. However, we just got to hope that cards have key identification marks that do not get distorted w/ each new scan & online upload.

Regarding my Chico card and “Huge differences”, it was supposed to be identified as the same card . The point of sharing those two images is to show the differences of a scanned card(even by the same grader).

[G1911]

As BODA has outed thousands of cards now, can we use an actual example of incorrect scan matching?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I'm still weighing my options.

I realize that inquiring minds need to know, and dammit, we need action!

But I'm not seeing the need to move quickly here. I do have the card back from PSA now, and it's resting in its former place of glory in my primary display case with my other mainline Mays base cards, although I continue to glare at it suspiciously every time I pass by it, just for good measure.

Would you feel better if you were to learn that in fact every card in your display case had actually been cleaned, altered, or restored in some way?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Some they are good on...they missed some as well.......what happens then??? After they have slandered a card.

My favorites are the ones where BODA says, "I couldn't find what they did to this card specifically, but it used to be an 8 and now it's a 9, and the serial number is only 57 certs away from this other card over here, and that one was a 5 and now it's a 7, so they must have done something to it."

Or, "We know this card was purchased by Gary Moser because the eBay buyer's masked ID is "w***1" LOL. Nevermind the fact that there are 134 million active users on eBay and only 1296 unique masked IDs, which means there are on average 103,395 different users for each masked ID. That is until eBay started completely jumbling ALL user IDs into completely random characters (don't believe me, just go look at your own masked ID from cards you know you won after logging out). You'll have a different masked ID every time and the characters won't even correspond to your username. Someone said that VCP doesn't have random IDs for buyers, but even then, we're still talking about many thousands of people with the same VCP IDs. I proved this all on Blowhard years ago, but of course, nobody cared.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

My favorites are the ones where BODA says, "I couldn't find what they did to this card specifically, but it used to be an 8 and now it's a 9, and the serial number is only 57 certs away from this other card over here, and that one was a 5 and now it's a 7, so they must have done something to it."

Or, "We know this card was purchased by Gary Moser because the eBay buyer's masked ID is "w***1" LOL. Nevermind the fact that there are 134 million active users on eBay and only 1296 unique masked IDs, which means there are on average 103,395 different users for each masked ID. That is until eBay started completely jumbling ALL user IDs into completely random characters (don't believe me, just go look at your own masked ID from cards you know you won after logging out). You'll have a different masked ID every time and the characters won't even correspond to your username. Someone said that VCP doesn't have random IDs for buyers, but even then, we're still talking about many thousands of people with the same VCP IDs. I proved this all on Blowhard years ago, but of course, nobody cared.

If a card was sold by PWCC, and it's the same card that someone purchased in a lower grade and altered, and Moser is one name associated with the masked ID, and this happens over and over and over again and the same masked ID keeps coming up, I would say as a matter of common sense the chances that it was some other random ebay user or users buying the cards and not Moser are pretty low -- even assuming you're right on this information. I don't think you're looking at this the right way and it feels like a red herring. These are not independent events, although maybe that's not the technically right way to put it. How many of these other users associated with the same masked ID are likely to be card doctors? Zero I bet.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Would you feel better if you were to learn that in fact every card in your display case had actually been cleaned, altered, or restored in some way?

I’m guessing that this is hyperbole, unless you’re casting a very wide net for your definition. For example, I will hazard a guess that my 2010 Upper Deck Buster Posey probably hasn’t had much work done. And it is in one of my display cases.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If a card was sold by PWCC, and it's the same card that someone purchased in a lower grade and altered, and Moser is one name associated with the masked ID, and this happens over and over and over again and the same masked ID keeps coming up, I would say as a matter of common sense the chances that it was some other random ebay user or users buying the cards and not Moser are pretty low -- even assuming you're right on this information. I don't think you're looking at this the right way and it feels like a red herring. These are not independent events, although maybe that's not the technically right way to put it. How many of these other users associated with the same masked ID are likely to be card doctors? Zero I bet.

I'm not saying Moser wasn't tied to any of these cards. I'm sure he was. And yes, having a trail of other pieces of evidence that are often tied together certainly increases the likelihood of particular people being the culprit being much higher. I'm more speaking in general about their overall approach to tying people together and using Moser as an example because everyone seems to know his name. But many of the cards they call out do not have multiple roads of evidence all leading to Rome.

And again, for the record in case anyone forgot, I'm not a fan of Moser or card trimming in general. I think there's a world of difference between cleaning a card and trimming a card.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by raulus

I’m guessing that this is hyperbole, unless you’re casting a very wide net for your definition. For example, I will hazard a guess that my 2010 Upper Deck Buster Posey probably hasn’t had much work done. And it is in one of my display cases.

I just meant it as a hypothetical. Like if you had 100 cards that you love and found out one of them was altered, it'd be easy to see how you might feel some type of way about that card every time you look at it. But what if you could magically know the true history of all 100 cards and you learned that they'd all in fact been improved in some way. What then? Would you just walk away from the hobby and sell your collection or would you just throw your hands up and say, "well, it is what it is" and just learn to accept them as they are?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I just meant it as a hypothetical. Like if you had 100 cards that you love and found out one of them was altered, it'd be easy to see how you might feel some type of way about that card every time you look at it. But what if you could magically know the true history of all 100 cards and you learned that they'd all in fact been improved in some way. What then? Would you just walk away from the hobby and sell your collection or would you just throw your hands up and say, "well, it is what it is" and just learn to accept them as they are?

It's a fair question, and certainly in some ways proves the adage that ignorance is bliss.

Sort of like if I had to personally wear a sign that listed out all of the mistakes and stupid things I've done in my life (including during my misspent youth), then most people would probably shun me, or perhaps start throwing stones. My kids would certainly be a lot less willing to consider my counsel, although that already mostly happens due to their being teenagers (or in their early 20s) who are natural experts in all things.

But getting back to cards, I will admit that my (perhaps impossible) hope is that the cards in my collection have not been seriously doctored. A little cleaning, I'm not going to get too excited about. Re-coloring or trimming would be aggravating for sure.

Based on your comments here and elsewhere, I'm inferring that you will posit that the majority of high grade vintage is full of trim jobs and recoloration. And you may be right. Perhaps I'm just holding on to the impossible dream that undoctored high grade vintage should be a possibility, particularly if we're talking about mass-produced items from the 50s-70s, and not stuff from 100-150 years ago.

[raulus]

I guess I am now a member of the double-posting club. Not sure this has ever happened to me before.