Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman
those are different forms of property rights.
If you are a secured creditor and your item is there and identifiable, the court will order its return. thats the point of being a secured creditor.
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Okay, but that response didn't really answer the question at hand.
Isn't there a difference in having to file a UCC-1 as a secured creditor between giving your property to someone to do something for you, like when consigning it to an auction house or sending it to be graded by a TPG, as opposed to renting a space/unit and storing your property in it?
If you rent an apartment and put your belongings in it, and the landlord goes bankrupt, I've never heard of a tenant having to file anything to protect their property and stop a bankruptcy court from seizing their belongings. And I've never heard of someone seizing the property all the tenants have stored in their rental units, nor requiring them to have filed UCC-1s to protect what they are storing from being taken by the bankrupt landlord's creditors either. I would think the same would be the case for renting a space to store your items in someone's "vault", because that is technically what you're doing, just renting a space to store your property in.
I seem to remember in a prior thread about this when it was mentioned about bank safe deposit boxes being like these vault accounts, I believe it was you that had indicated there are specific laws in this regard that only apply to banks and customer's safe deposit box contents that protect them from such creditor seizures should the bank go bankrupt. However, aren't there also specific laws in regard to tenant/landlord relationships when the landlord files bankruptcy, such as how a security deposit cannot automatically get taken to satisfy creditors, and remains as an asset that is fully returnable to the tenant? I would assume this would go along with the fact that if a tenant stores property in the space they rented, as long as the rent is paid and current, that lease still continues and goes on and has to be honored by the bankruptcy court and/or creditors despite the landlord filing bankruptcy. And if so, wouldn't that also preclude the bankruptcy court, or any creditors, from violating a valid lease and going in and seizing property a tenant legally has stored there? I believe that is correct, and without the necessity of the tenant in having to file a UCC-1 to further protect themselves or their property.
And that is why I mentioned that I've never used a vault service, nor seen an actual vault agreement/lease to be able to see exactly how it is worded so I could possibly determine if it written similar to an actual tenant/landlord lease type agreement, and therefore possibly subject to the rules/laws afforded to such tenant-landlord agreements.
If it turns out that the way such a vault agreement is written/worded, so that it could possibly afford someone leasing a vault space some additional protections for their property being held in that space, that would be good to know for a potential vault user. Especially in the case of a vault owner/landlord bankruptcy, so a vault user's property was safe and they didn't have to worry about a UCC-1 filing to further protect it. That could be something valuable for members on here to find out about and know. One would hope that the various outfits offering vault services would have worded their leases/agreements in such a way to afford such protections to those choosing to use their vault services. It is possible though that different vault companies have different ways they've worded/written their agreements so that they don't all provide the same protections/assurances for their tenant's/users that they should, or could.
And that is also why I said I defer to the attorneys on here in regard to this issue. They can maybe help to confirm and get such info out to our members so they know if any one of the vault agreements from the various current providers may or may not be safe and protective of their items being stored in them. Or if they do need to go further and potentially need to think about something like a UCC-1 filing to further protect themselves and their property.