Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh
Another tortured, passive- aggressive (or maybe, just plain aggressive) slam from the all knowing Stache! Since you know everything, Stache, I guess the debate is over on Albert Pujols...
Except it isn't. First of all, he's a "dumpster fire" who is "embarrassing himself"- but you "really like" him? Strange way to express admiration...
Here's a novel approach. Since a relatively quiet guy who has had a storied career just achieved a major milestone, how about we enjoy it (or merely acknowledge it, for Heaven's sake) rather than flex our keyboard muscles tearing him down? Jeesh. News flash for the Stache- LOTS of wonderful players deteriorate over time. Did you truly expect him to maintain his StL pace with the Angels? If he had done so, he'd have 800+ home runs and 2500+ RBI (and yes, I'm rounding off- you can do the O/C math). I'm sure Pujols is devastated that he didn't meet your statistical models.
When Pujols retires, he'll have 660+ HR, well over 3000 hits, 2000+ RBI, and a career batting average right around .300. So, it's accurate to say he IS one of the all time greats, not merely that he "was on his way to becoming" one.
I'll close by saying I'm no fan of StL or the Angels, but I can certainly recognize a deserving first ballot HOF player when I see one. Trent King
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How, exactly, is it tortured? The statistical evidence is undeniable. I’m sorry if a bit of perspective being presented while everybody is fawning over him upsets you.
He was absolutely an all-time great as a Cardinal. A player’s career is judged in its entirety, and Albert’s statistics have fallen considerably since his move to the AL. The second half of his career-and his time in an Angels uniform represents about 40% of his career, to date-has been an utter disappointment. He was at least a productive player the first half of his run as an Angel-not the player he once was, but he could still produce a positive effect for his team.
That reality is long over, to the point where he is hurting his team, and embarrassing himself.
In 2017, his OPS+ was 80. As an offensive player, he was 20% below league average. As a whole player, he was worth -1.9 WAR. And the team paid him $26 million for the privilege of penciling a below replacement level player into the lineup.
In 2018, his OPS+ was 91, and he rebounded slightly to be worth 0.8 WAR. For $27 million, they got a substitute level player.
In 2019, his OPS+ was 92. He was worth 0.5 WAR for $28 million.
This year, he’s getting paid $29 million, and has been worth 0.3 WAR.
The fact that “lots of other players deteriorate over time” and keep playing doesn’t make this right. They weren’t right to do it, and neither is Pujols.
When a player continues taking the field every day, and they are a detriment to the team, that is selfish. I still like Pujols (and here’s a novel concept, ClementeFanOh: it is possible to criticize a player, and still like them). Yes, I absolutely think he is being selfish now. Continuing on in pursuit of some records, is motivated by vanity.
What else is he doing? Don’t tell me that Albert has dreams of reaching the World Series one more time, because this team, at 22-30, isn’t sniffing the playoffs. Unless Albert has the worst financial planner in history, he doesn’t need the money. He’s not trying to secure a spot in the Hall of Fame. That’s been done. So why is he playing still? And don’t give me some saccharine-coated “he’s playing for love of the game” bullshit. I doubt very much that Albert enjoys not being able to run. I doubt that Albert, who until recently was a career .300 hitter, enjoys hitting a combined .243 over the last four years, and having a .293 OBP over that span. Albert Pujols played the game at the highest level. Now he’s a shadow of his former self. Every step is painful. He runs slower than I do, now.
What’s his motivation to keep playing if not the pursuit of more records? Forget making the playoffs. It isn’t even about the Angels winning. If he wanted the Angels to win, the first thing he could do to help them do exactly that would be to retire.
Vanity. Staying in the spotlight. Hanging on to the last vestiges of his career, and a game that has so clearly passed him bye. It sucks that he’s suffered the injuries he has. I wish he’d stayed healthy. He was a lot of fun to watch. But now he’s Mickey Mantle at the end, when Mick winced every tine he swung the bat.
As to the Angels not releasing him, you’re right. They could. They should. They should have a few years ago. Maybe the fact that they haven’t is further evidence of why they haven’t made the playoffs once in the last five years, and only one time in the last decade, a 3-0 sweep at the hands of the Royals. The last time the Angels won so much as a single playoff game was in 2009.
The team is horribly managed. They don’t have the intestinal fortitude to cut “a legend”.
“Oh, the fans will boo us if we can the great Albert.”
I’m pretty sure they’re already booing because your team sucks. If you release him, and put a younger, more talented player in his place, maybe the team will improve? They have inarguably the best player in the game in Mike Trout. They are wasting the prime of his career with this ridiculous sentimentality. This game is about winning, and if the owners of the Angels don’t have the stones to do what is necessary, then they should sell. They owe it to their fans. Instead, Angels fans watch the team miss the playoffs year after year. The team spent over $161 million last year, and ended up 72-90.
I will cheer when Albert Pujols goes into Cooperstown. He has been a fantastic player. He’s never said an unkind word about anyone. Never brought dishonor on himself off the field. By all accounts, he’s a good man. And yes, again, it is possible to really like a player, and yet criticize them when they hang on too long. Life is not black and white, where you either like someone, or don’t. But I’m not going to be among the legion of baseball fans who coddle him.
“Oh, congratulations on passing Willie Mays.”
If I could talk to him, I would ask him, “what’s more important? Climbing the all-time charts, and maybe becoming #1 all-time in RBI, or bowing out gracefully?”
You don’t like my position? Fine. I’m cool with that. I’m not going to bite my tongue because you don’t agree. And here’s a news flash, ClementeFanOh: neither I, or my posts, are “tortured”. I am a very happy individual. I don’t have some secret vendetta against Albert, or any other player I say a critical word about. I call it like I see it, and that’s what a discussion forum is for.
I criticized Derek Jeter for doing the exact same thing, and I was roasted by Yankee fans for doing so. Jeter was pretty awful at the end of his career (yet still better than Pujols), and the whole “farewell tour” that was his last season in the Yankee pinstripes was such ego stroking bullshit.
You know who I respect for the way he went out? Ted Williams. He hit the home run in his last at bat at Fenway, and he ran into the dugout at the end of the game, and drove away. He didn’t come out and tip his cap, fundamentally changing who he’d been since his second season, because of cheap sentimentality.
Ted played one last season, took a massive pay cut because he underperformed the year before by his standards (because of a nerve issue in his neck), and in that last season, he was fantastic. You don’t think Ted could have held on a few more years to get the 346 hits he needed for 3,000? He OPSd 1.096 at age 41. He didn’t need to clear some mythical plateau to certify his greatness. The man knew it was time, and bowed out gracefully.
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