[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Geez, Bob, talk about going far afield...the Holocaust, really? Not a good thing to put into a friggin' card thread, and I am not going to respond to it substantively. I used Star Wars as an example to try and keep it in the realm of inoffensive fiction.

As for attorneys, there are indeed people out there who believe that suspected criminals should not get a defense, or even a trial. Just take 'em out and shoot 'em. Fortunately, our Constitution's Bill of Rights differs. Everyone is entitled to a defense as a right, and that means someone has to do the defending. Me, personally, I did not want to do that sort of work so I am strictly a civil practitioner, but I understand and respect the Constitutional role that criminal defense attorneys have in our system. If PWCC and/or its principals are indicted, they too will be entitled to the best defense they can procure, and I do not begrudge them their defense or their day in court. That said, I don't want to defend them and would not sign on to defend an adjunct civil case against them if asked. Unlike an accused criminal, no one is entitled to a graded card. No one's liberty is threatened if a card gets graded or not.

CSG has decided to take on PWCC's baggage by partnering with it. That is their choice. I can choose where to spend my hobby money. I choose not to buy from PWCC because of their history and the likelihood that I will get a doctored card. I also can choose not to do business with CSG as a result.

The basic issue you raise is contextual. Nuance. Not something Americans do well. Should a conscript refuse to serve? Depends on what is being asked and what is being threatened. Muhammad Ali was willing to go to prison over his objections to being drafted. Some consider that an unforgivable breach of duty to the country; others consider it a justified refusal to violate his religious beliefs. Both answers are right and both are wrong, depending on the context. Refusing to serve in Vietnam is far different than refusing to serve in WWII. Context.

The WWII thing was because of the nature of the moral dilemma question. You said the guy fixing the toilets on the Death Star was guilty, PERIOD. So, I merely asked does that hold true for someone in a WWII prison camp situation. I could have just as easily asked a similar type question about the crap going on in the Ukraine, but thought it best to stay away from current events. Also your example is imaginary, so most people will generally dismiss and blow something like that off. But inject some real world situations and circumstances into the context, and suddenly people sit up and take notice.

And I fully understand the idea of nuance and context. I was getting into it with others in the thread about best ever lefty pitcher of all-time, and kept trying to get them to realize that they were refusing to look at context and nuance and basically everyone from the past was crap, and wouldn't be very good at all in the modern game. But when I kept trying to say they need to take these modern players back and look at them in the context of earlier eras, there was no guarantee all these modern players would be able to play and function anywhere near as well as the players from back then. They didn't want to hear it and ignored it. Didn't fit their narrative and what they want to believe, and their statistics (which don't always properly adjust for differences and nuances in the game and different eras).

I brought up the other WWII reference to do just that, change the context to something everyone would understand. You're uncomfortable with a real-world scenario though? Fine. Go back to your Star Wars scenario. What if the plumber was threatened with physical harm if he didn't fix the toilets, is he still guilty? And remember, YOUR initial statement was he was guilty, he was helping the Death Star operate. You never said anything about context. Or what about if the guards on the Death Star threatened to kill him if he didn't do as he was told, or even worse, they had his innocent young children as hostages and threatened to harm them if he didn't do as told. So where do you draw the line and change your answer to he's not guilty, or do you stick by your original statement that he's guilty.

Now, go back to my questions about all the other parties doing work for or with PWCC, like their bank, the postal service, office supply company, receptionist, and so on. Funny how you ignored any response to that part of my questions before. Your Star Wars example clearly shows you feel anyone working with PWCC is guilty like they are of contributing to fraud in the hobby. So, you come out and apparently only attacked CSG and demanded everyone stop doing any business with them, so as to ultimately punish PWCC, right? If so, I get it. You and many others are mad at PWCC for allegedly perpetrating and enabling fraud in the hobby, and are mad because it doesn't look like the FBI investigation is going anywhere, so no one looks to be going to jail, and PWCC doesn't look to be going out of business anytime soon. So instead, you accuse and attack CSG for enabling PWCC by agreeing to accept submissions from them. You're hoping that CSG changes their mind and stops doing business with PWCC, which causes PWCC to lose more business, and eventually contributes to pushing PWCC totally out of business. Now isn't that the actual final goal you're all striving for, to get PWCC out of business?

Assuming that's right, which I'm pretty confident it is, I'll ask again, so why are you only going after CSG who hasn't really done much of anything with PWCC yet? PWCC seemed to be surviving quite well before this CSG deal was announced. I had previously asked, and as usual got no response, as to whether or not anyone knew for a fact if any of the other TPGs (PSA, SCG, Beckett) officially stopped accepting any and all submissions from or through PWCC. So, are any TPGs, other than CSG, still taking submissions from or through PWCC? And if they still are, which I'm guessing is the case, then just going after CSG isn't going to do crap to ultimately help shut down PWCC. And that goes for all the other businesses doing anything with PWCC that I was asking about. Those are the people and businesses who have been doing work with and for PWCC all along. Attacking and boycotting them would be much more appropriate and effective in working to get PWCC shut down than going after CSG alone likely ever will.

And if the other TPGs are all still doing business with PWCC, it is them you should have already been boycotting all along. This looks more and more like just another general bitch session where you're all just lazy and going after the most easy and accessible target, which is CSG, instead of putting your money where your mouths are and going after PWCC's other vendors, associates, and personnel. And that includes things like buying any graded cards from any TPG that has/is doing business with PWCC. Even if you aren't directly submitting cards to one of the TPGs, buying one of their graded cards helps supports the notion that graded cards bring more money when sold, and thus prompts other people to consider sending even more submissions to that TPG, which helps keep that TPG in business to continue helping and enabling PWCC in their business.

And maybe worst of all, here's a chance for a new TPG to possibly shake things up for the better and bring some competition and change to the other TPGs. Been hearing all the bitching and moaning about TPGs for years now. But instead of trying to see if CSG can bring some positive change to the TPG ranks, you all want to bash and boycott them for trying to get their business going so as to be in a position to hopefully force the other TPGs to improve their own services and compete more for your business. Instead, you jugheads go after the new company, and don't really bother to do anything against the TPGs that did run through and grade and slab all those altered cards through PWCC. The other TPGs besides CSG, if they were wasting their time, and reading these kinds of threads, would probably be laughing their asses off at how stupid we are because we're actually looking to get rid of their competition for them apparently, while ultimately helping to improve their own positions and hold on the market, without them really doing anything to improve their services or prices. I understand that no one on here likes PWCC, but whether CSG works with them going forward or not has probably almost 0% impact on whether they continue in business or not. And since none of you bitchers and moaners are really going to do anything about going after PWCC and all the others that have been supporting and enabling them all along before CSG came along, why don't you just suck it up and wait to see if CSG can do something positive in the TPG area. From where I'm sitting, the worst case scenario is that nothing really changes with CSG in this position.

I actually laughed out loud when I read the stupid insinuations from some in earlier posts that I was possibly a shill for PWCC and/or CSG. Nothing could ever be further from the truth. But in retrospect, I'm beginning to wonder if these posters aren't actually devious shills themselves, covertly acting on behalf of the incumbent TPGs and attempting to manipulate others to getting rid of their competition for them.