[Pat R]

Originally Posted by pat r

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Originally Posted by jerrytotino

ted,


2-11-2010
to expand on your bl460 "no print" theory for cards not having a confirmed uzit and/or ab460 b/f combo i noticed that a very large majority (over 83%) of the confirmed bl460's are cards which are also confirmed with a red hindu back. I am only referring to red hindu cards which are part of the 350/460 series with the exception of the 460-only kleinow (boston). as you have already pointed out the kleinow (boston) breaks the standard back rules.

In all the cases where a confirmed bl460 back does exist with a uzit and/or ab460 back the player also has a confirmed red hindu:

Baker - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu
burch (fielding) - confirmed with uzit, ab460 and red hindu
cobb (red portrait) - confirmed with uzit and red hindu
downey (bat) - confirmed with uzit and red hindu
elberfeld (fielding) - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu
o'leary (hands on knees) - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu
seymour (throwing) - confirmed with uzit and red hindu
snodgrass (fielding) - confirmed with ab460 and red hindu

of the remaining 21 confirmed bl460 subjects which do not exist with either the ab460 or uzit all except for 5 have been confirmed with a red hindu back. These 5 subjects are listed below:

Dougherty (arm in air)
mathewson (dark cap)
mcintyre (brooklyn & chicago)
murphy (batting)
rucker (throwing)

based on these observations it appears that red hindu seems to be tied closely to the bl460 back. 24 of the 29 confirmed bl460's are also confirmed with a red hindu back. Assuming this theory to be correct then there is a possibility the 5 players above may be confirmed with a red hindu back at some point.

In addition, extending this theory to the remaining "super-prints" and remaining confirmed 350/460 series red hindu's the following cards may also be found with bl460 at some point:

Bender (no trees)
chase (blue portrait)
chase (dark cap)
cobb (bat off) - as noted this might exist, but waiting for additional confirmation
donlin (bat)
magee (bat)
manning (pitch)
pfeister (throwing)
wagner (bat/right)

any thoughts are appreciated.

Jerry

Originally Posted by tedzan

jerry

great observation regarding the possible connection of bl 460 and red hindu cards. and, of course this only
applies to cards in the 350/460 series (bl 460 backs only exist in this series).

While i was putting together my american beauty 460 sub-set, i observed this bl 460/rh linkage. By virtue
of the fact that ab 460 and red hindu cards are mutually exclusive. So, i'm glad that you, too, have noticed
the bl 460/rh connection.

Now pardon me, but i have to correct you on the following back data......

Baker...........has not been confirmed with ab 460
cobb............has not been confirmed with red hindu
elberfeld........has not been confirmed with ab 460
o'leary.........has not been confirmed with ab 460
snodgrass.....has not been confirmed with ab 460

my research on these 5 cards is reflected on the most current super-set spreadsheet.

Thanks for posting this very meaningful info regarding the bl 460 cards; and, i hope we can further this discussion.

Ted z

12-2-10

Originally Posted by tedzan

my hypothesis that the 350/460 series of t206's with broad leaf 460 and red hindu backs were printed with identical fronts is nearly confirmed.
these cards were printed and issued in the fall/winter of 1910. The 23 cards listed here are approaching a final count of the bl 460 / red hindu
matched "twins".
For more info regarding this theory, check out this link......http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460





these 23 subjects have been confirmed with both the broad leaf 460 and red hindu backs......

Baker
m. Brown (chicago
cobb (red portrait)
davis (a's)
doolan (bat)
downey (bat)
elberfeld (washington-fielding)
evers (bat-yellow sky)
griffith (bat)
johnson (pitching)
joss (pitching)
kleinow (boston)
konetchy (glove low)
murphy (bat)
o'leary (hands on knees)
rucker (throwing)
seymour (throwing
snodgrass (catching)
stahl (glove)
street (catching)
sweeney (fielding)
willis (throwing)
cy young (glove)


the following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the red hindu back, but not yet with the broad leaf 460 back:

Chance (portrait-yellow)
chase (portrait-blue)
chase (dark cap)
donlin (bat)
doyle (bat)
magee (bat)

i would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above three t206's with a broad leaf 460 back.


Conversely......
The following 350/460 subjects have been confirmed with the broad leaf 460 back, but not yet with the red hindu back:

Dougherty (arm in air)
mathewson (dark cap)
mcintyre (brooklyn & chicago)
reulbach (no glove)

i would appreciate it, if any one on this forum can confirm any of the above four t206's with a red hindu back.


Note....regarding red hindu cards......

Unfortunately, in the 1990's, there were some unscrupulous (but very talented) scam "artists" who bought up many red hindu common cards.
They modified these cards to create re-fronted star cards, which were so authentic that they fooled the graders at psa and sgc.

Fortunately, these fake cards did not fool the t206 experts. As, the scammers were not smart enough to know the legitimate t206 front/back
combos on such cards as the various cobb's, matty's, etc. Therefore, most of these t206 fakes were detected.

But the bad news is....that we will never really know how many red hindu cards were lost in this process.



Ted z

5-9-2015

Originally Posted by [b

pat r;1409690]they're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed brown
lenox subjects are among the 75 ab 460 subjects.

[/b]
10-20-2015

Originally Posted by pat r

i have mentioned this once before but it didn't receive any opinions either
way so i thought i would try it here.

All of the confirmed brown lenox subjects are also ab 460 subjects so i was
thinking it might be possible that some(or all) of the sheets used for the
ab 460's were also used for the brown lenox.

While the brown lenox is an extremely rare back (22 different subjects confirmed so far) it seems odd that none of the possible 34 non ab 460
subjects has been confirmed with a brown lenox. So could it be that not all black lenox subjects are possible with brown lenox and only ab 460 subjects are?

Originally Posted by tedzan;1463551[b

]very interesting observation, pat.[/b]

we do know that some of the sheets used to print the ab 460 backs were also used to print the uzit backs.

But it remains to be seen if this is also true for the ab 460 cards and the brown lenox cards, since (to date)
there are only 22 examples of the brown lenox cards.

Furthermore, it is quite puzzling that 4 subjects (lajoie, overall, pfeister, wagner) of these 22 brown lenox
cards have yet to be confirmed with black lenox backs ? ? ? ?


Incidentally, there are 35 subjects that are ab 460 no-prints (not 34).



ted z
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1-16-2016

Originally Posted by tedzan

american lithographic (alc) printed the american beauty 460, piedmont 460 (factory 42), lenox, and uzit cards circa...feb 1911. Concurrently, alc started producing
their gold-bordered cards, beginning with their t80 (military series) which were printed with t206-type backs (lenox, old mill, tolstoi, uzit) and cairo monopol.
The latter t-brand back was printed using brown ink.

I contend that the t206 brown lenox cards are simply the result an alc printer who had just completed a press run of t80 cards with cairo monopol backs, then failed to
switch to black ink in order to proceed with the following press run of t206 black lenox cards.

in time, if my theory proves to be true, we could discover as many as 75 subjects with brown lenox backs. My 75 number tracks with the piedmont 460 factory 42 number.
Which comprises of 63 subjects from the 350/460 series plus 12 subjects from the 460-only series.

Also, it has been suggested by pat r in another thread, that brown lenox cards track with the 350/460 series subjects in the american beauty 460 press run (28 subjects).

In any event, we all know how extremely rare these brown lenox cards are. And, this fact is consistent with the t80 cairo monopol cards, which are very difficult to find.
I don't think that this is just a mere coincidence.


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currently, there are only 23 confirmed t206 subjects with brown lenox backs......

350/460 series

bradley (bat)
burch (fielding)
cobb (bat off shoulder)
conroy (bat)
jordan (bat)
lajoie (bat)
lake (no ball)
leach (cap)
leifield (bat)
manning (pitching)
mcquillan (bat)
overall (yellow sky)
pfeister (throwing)
f. Smith (chicago & boston)
wagner (bat on right shoulder)
willetts
willis (bat)


460-only series

chase (trophy)
latham
marquard (pitching)
merkle (throwing)
schlei (portrait)
wiltse (portrait-cap)


show us your brown lenox cards....and, any responses to this thread will be greatly appreciated.


ted z
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6-2-2017

Originally Posted by tedzan

to date, 23 brown lenox cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, we can predict that 13 (or 14) more t206 cards will eventually be discovered with brown lenox backs.
Six subjects of the 23 brown lenox cards are from the 460-only series, and 17 subjects are from the 350/460 series......
group b




350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown lenox backs

bradley (bat)
burch (fielding)
cobb (bat off shoulder)
conroy (bat)
jordan (bat)
lajoie (bat)
lake (no ball)
leach (cap)
leifield (bat)
manning (pitching)
mcquillan (bat)
overall (yellow sky)
pfeister (throwing)
f. Smith (chicago & boston)
wagner (bat on right shoulder)
willetts
willis (bat)


the timeline of the printing of these group b subjects with american beauty 460, lenox, piedmont 460 factory #42, and uzit back was jan-feb 1911. This exact timeline
coincides with the printing of the t80 (military men) cards, which were printed with cairo monopol, lenox, old mill, tolstoi. And uzit backs.

t80 cards




so, here is my hypothesis....the printer at american lithographic inadvertently forgot to switch from the brown ink after press runs of t80 cairo monopol cards to black ink
prior to starting a press run of t206 lenox cards. Furthermore, my guess is he caught his mistake quickly, which would explain why very few brown lenox examples exist.
Instead of dis-carding these brown lenox cards, these mistakes were shipped along with the black lenox cards to factory #30. And, were inserted into lenox packs.




Regarding the 6 subjects from the 460-only series with brown lenox backs......they appear to be from the same group of 9 subjects which were printed with piedmont 460
factory #42 backs.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown lenox backs

chase (trophy)
latham
marquard (pitching)
merkle (throwing)
schlei (portrait)
wiltse (portrait-cap)

i expect these 3 subjects will be found with brown lenox backs......

Schlei (batting)
schaefer (washington)
seymour (portrait)


would love to hear from some of you on this forum with your responses to this theory ?


ted z
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