[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

In another thread, perezfan (Mark) asked for opinions on the "legitimacy" of a Jim Brown pin he had recently purchased. The pin basically had never been seen before, except when it was sold previously in another auction. The consensus was the pin was questionable. I personally think the pin is probably vintage but was home made.

It got me to thinking about how we decide if a pin is or is not "real." One strike against Mark's pin was that no one had seen another. OK...but I have been searching 25 years for a PM-10 I have seen exactly once. It is a Billy Pierce SF PM-10. Almost never seen, but everyone agrees it's "real." Another pin I've seen once yet is unquestionably real is a Hoyt Wilhelm HOF pin. There is another SF Giant PM-10 my buddy swears he saw on a lady's hat, even though no other Giants collector ever knew of it's existence. I believe Al has a few PM-10's (e.g. Wes Westrum), where his are the only ones known to exist yet are unquestionably real.

So, scarcity does not necessarily = fake. Even with the super-plentiful PM-10's (e.g. many variations of Willie Mays) we, in most cases, do not know who actually made the pin. Between the early 1900's paper back labels and the 1970's maker's name on the curl, most "real" pinbacks have no manufacturer's name. For all we know, they were made in somebody's basement. And, what if a guy working in a pin factory decided to quickly make 10 pins of his favorite player, while he was cranking out Mays pins. Are his 10 real or fake?

For the past 45 years, you could buy badge making machines from this company:

https://www.badgeaminit.com/

I would assume there were other pin making machines, prior to that. And even if you couldn't make pins at home, I would imagine a person could have a limited number of custom pins made in the 40s. 50's and 60's. Things like "Happy Retirement Bob!." Attached are a couple of Mays pins I have seen once and are not part of a particular "series". I think the color one is in andypcl's collection. Are these real or fake? If I had a chance to buy either, I probably would. My point is, licensing was different back in those days and I would doubt all, if any, of our known, "real" pins were licensed. So, if a guy decides to make 50 pins to sell outside a stadium in 1965 are those "real" or "fake"? Maybe some guy sold some Jim Browns outside of Cleveland Municipal Stadium? How do we, in the hobby, classify those pins? I'm not expressing myself all that well...I've been up since my dog threw up an hour ago....but hopefully you guys understand what I'm saying and will maybe chime in.

Rob,
I had to think long and hard about the question you are asking what is real and what is fake. Lets try and clear some points up all pins are REAL! Now the real question is are all pins ERA real! I have collected pins for over 45 years and have a collection very large so I have been able to see many styles,,, It takes years sometimes to gain the knowledge and sometimes even an expert gets burned . Your first point is the Brown pin real yes, is it Era Real ( in my opinion ) NO. To many red flags keep it from being good. Second " one of a kind pins" yes do exist and are era real. Lets take Pierce ( We all know your a Giants collector) As was just pointed out to you Andy (andypcl) Hi Andy now owns that Pierce pin I have he has one. So now there are 2. Is it real Absolutely! Era real Absolutely! (I post Pics) It is black backed and union stamped. ( hard to see) I will have to ask Andy if his is also. Now comes years of collecting knowledge Wes Westrum so far I think Im the only one who has one and that will and can change size 2 1/8 union stamp No. Is it era real Absolutely! Why, other known 2 1/8 pins made in the same style just like this one.. Another Don Muller 1 3/4 inch in size union stamp No. Era real Absolutely! Why, others made in a similar style and also the back of the pin in construction is very consistent with era pins. Now here is era correct and not era correct( Pics) Roger Maris Salute pin. Home run chase in 1961 Both pins are real But only one is era correct.. The pin known as the "Pink box" version is rare but is era correct. The #1 is in pink. The second one Is it real? Yes .. Is it era correct No. Made 20 + years later. There are differences no pink number in the box, Different photo of Maris on the front. all the rest is the same... Pin is 3 1/4 inch in both cases BUT other than the front its the back that is the give away.. Real looks like a bottom of a coffee can the other is usually bright and shiny ( unless its been aged by other means) If you ebay that pin the much later version can be found for upwards of 300+ dollars. Worth about 50... Now fakes real fakes! Here is a Mickey Mantle Theresa brewer pin. Made in the 50s.. I have never seen a real one without the union logo on the back. Size 1 3/4 inch. Is the pin real Absolutely, has the pin been faked absolutely . There are good fakes and bad fakes ( bad fakes all red letters on front) then there are good fakes.. BUT no union logo on back and the small piece of the bat doesnt go around the curl of the pin to the back! (Pics) . Styles also change as to pin back construction. Here are some phillies pins are they era correct Absolutely. Are the backs made differently Absolutely. Same fronts but different style pins used. 2 have straight pins or spring pins the other 2 have what is known as Bayonette style pins. Bottom line is you really have to have collected these pins for a long time to gain knowledge as to what is really out there. I could keep going but will stop here for now!