Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911
Anyways, Grove Vs. Johnson Vs. Spahn with the shared acknowledgement that all 3 were truly great pitchers is a much more reasonable polite debate for us all to have than the screeching from Koufax stans that is most of this.
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I can't disagree with these three, makes too much sense. But really can't tell you how to pick one over the other two. They're truly from three distinct eras, which is part of what makes it so tough to try choose just one as the best. Maybe because of the disparity between the different eras, rather than trying to pick just one overall great lefty, why not see if there isn't more of a consensus of who the best lefty is in each era.
And we could debate about what the different, distinct eras are, but for me I'd break them out roughly as follows:
19th Century (18** - 1899)
Pre-War Deadball (1900 - 1920)
Pre-War Liveball (1920 - 1945)
Post-War Vintage (1945 - 1980)
Post-War Modern (1980 - 2000)
21st Century Modern (2000 - 202*)
Feel free to say/do what you want with these, but they do kind of run along generational lines, which was coincidental and not necessarily my original intention.
Now if these are kind of what would be agreed upon as the different eras, I'd say as far as best lefties go:
Ed Morris or Jesse Tannehill for 19th Century Era (Toss-Up ?)
(Not many good lefties pitching back then, but these two about the best in terms of Wins, W/L%, ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+, with maybe the nod to Norris for pitching 15 seasons, to only 7 seasons for Tannehill.)
Rube Waddell for the Pre-War Deadball Era (Eddie Plank a close 2nd)
(Plank has over 326 wins [3rd all time for lefties] and a .627 Win% over 17 seasons to Waddell's 193 wins and .574 Win% over 13 seasons, but Waddell has it slightly over Plank in ERA, WHIP, Ks, and ERA+. Waddell also had a dominant 6 year stretch from 1902-07, leading the AL in Ks all six years, and won the pitching Triple Crown in 1905. Plank had a long productive career, winning a lot, but never really led his league or the majors in any significant pitching measures. This almost seems a repeat of the Spahn-Koufax argument, but I think the edge goes to Waddell in this case due to him pitching and being so dominant a few years longer than Koufax. Honorable Mention to Ruth maybe, but not enough years pitching.)
Grove takes the Pre-War Liveball Era
(Hubbell gets 2nd spot, but Grove all the way.)
Spahn gets the Post-War Vintage Era (Carlton a close 2nd spot.)
(Carlton would primarily fall into this Era and does have 4 CYAs, and a pitching Triple Crown, and with 329 wins only trails Spahn's 363 wins as the most all time for a lefty. This one appears to be a lot closer than it first looks, but Spahn did lose 3 prime years to the service. Slight edge to Spahn.)
Randy Johnson for the Post-War Modern Era (Tom Glavine in 2nd spot.)
(Maybe even though he pitched better in the following Era, more than half of Johnson's pitching career was in this Era. Glavine actually has 2 more wins than Johnson [305 to 303], but Johnson has a better ERA, WHIP, and ERA+ than Glavine, and crushed him in Ks.))
Randy Johnson tentatively for the 21st Century Era (Subject to change.)
(Think this may be tentative for now, and we need to wait and see how current lefty pitchers like Kershaw and DeGrom finish out their careers. Johnson had his best years primarily in this Era. For now, Glavine may still be in 2nd, with the aforemented still active pitchers maybe closing fast.)