Doug Goodman and Ted Z,
1) Phil Rizzuto was on the regular HOF ballot for 14 years over a 20 year time period and the highest percentage of votes he received during that time was 38.4%. He had plenty of time to get voted in by guys who actually saw him play and the majority of them thought he didn't warrant induction.
Hall of Fame
1956 BBWAA ( 0.5%)
1962 BBWAA (27.5%)
1964 BBWAA (22.4%)
1964 Run Off ( 5.5%)
1966 BBWAA (17.9%)
1967 BBWAA (24.3%)
1967 Run Off ( 4.6%)
1968 BBWAA (26.1%)
1969 BBWAA (22.9%)
1970 BBWAA (26.3%)
1971 BBWAA (25.6%)
1972 BBWAA (26.0%)
1973 BBWAA (29.2%)
1974 BBWAA (30.4%)
1975 BBWAA (32.3%)
1976 BBWAA (38.4%)
2) You cherry picked guys who were voted in by the Veterans Committee who were good and who some today would be arguing for HOF induction if they weren't already in.
I am pretty sure I can go down the list of players the VC chose, cherry pick some names, pull them out, put them on a poll for this board to vote on and these guys would be determined to NOT be worthy of the HOF. Heck, I am sure guys like Bill James agrees that some of the VC's decisions are not correct.
Ted, you gave Johnny Mize and Sam Rice as two such people. The funny thing is, when looking at the yearly HOF vote percentage that they received when they were on the regular ballot, Mize's percentage was consistently higher than Rizzuto while Rice languished near obscurity until his last three years. However, the last two years, he received over 50% of the vote something Rizzuto never got close to.
3) Putting faith in Ted Williams judgement during the later years of his life is something I wouldn't do.
4) From 1941 until 1956, there were only eight teams in the AL so the number of total players eligible for MVP voting wasn't as great as during Concepcion's time.
For example, in 1950 (Rizzuto's MVP year) the Yankees used 38 players during the season. 15 of those players were Pitchers (five of whom appeared in eight or fewer Games). Of the 23 position players, only nine appeared in 100 or more Games and only 10 had 300 or more Plate Appearances (if you want to go by At Bats then it is only eight players). So, at most, each team would have maybe 20 guys who could be considered for the MVP (the number is probably closer to 15 but I am giving the benefit of the doubt).
This means that during his playing days, there might be 160 guys who could be considered for the MVP each year. So, for Rizzuto to finish in the top 20 of the MVP balloting he would only have to be better than 140 players (more like 100 players if the number of guys is only 15 per team).
Now, during Concepcion's time, there were 12 teams in the NL. In 1979, (I would have used 1981 where Concepcion finished fourth in the MVP voting but that was the strike shortened year) Concepcion finished ninth in the MVP balloting. During that season, the Reds used 35 different players, 14 of whom were Pitchers. Of the 21 position players, only eight played in 100 or more Games and nine had 300 or more Plate Appearances and At Bats.
Basically it works out to, again, between 15 to 20 players per team who could have been reasonably thought of as MVP candidates. But there is the rub. Concepcion had to compete against more players (an additional 60 to 80) when looking at whether he finished in the top 20 of MVP voting or not.
So, instead of having to beat, at most, 140 players like Rizzuto did to finish in the top 20 of MVP voting, Concepcion had to beat 220, at most, other players to finish in the top 20 of MVP voting.
Also, when looking at those MVP votes, Concepcion finished fourth, ninth and 15th while Rizzuto finished first, second, sixth, 11th, 14th, 19th and 20th.
Finally, yes, I grew up watching Concepcion play and the Reds were my favorite team. However, that is NOT the main reason I am arguing that Rizzuto is not a HOF player.
The main reasons are because I think Rizzuto got in by riding the coattails of DiMaggio, Dickey, Mantle, Berra and Ford (the ones most responsible for winning those World Series rings). He got in by having Ted Williams influence the VC and he got in because he just happened to be lucky enough to play for the Yankees.
For me, Rizzuto didn't have a long enough career (which would have given him a chance to accumulate counting stats), he didn't have a high enough peak and that peak didn't last long enough and he didn't lead his league in many offensive categories (he led the AL in Sac Bunts four times but if he were such a great hitter then he should have been swinging away and advancing the runner/s' via a Hit instead of the Bunt).
So, if Rizzuto got in the HOF by riding the coattails of others then I think Concepcion should to (Rose, Bench, Morgan, Perez, Foster, May Griffey, Seaver). But, he wont and that is because he didn't play in NY.
David
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