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Posted By: T206Collector

No one is debating that shilling is fraud. The issue is, to me, one of market efficiency and consumer protection. Notwithstanding its fraudulent nature, shilling could actually lead to healthier free markets, but we choose to protect consumers from the unknown -- similar to insider trading laws (but don't get me started on those).

For me, bottom line is I have never paid more for an item than I was willing to pay. What a fictional second bidder was willing to pay is really not much of a concern to me, and I would consider it more like an unknown hidden reserve. But, believe me, Leon runs an auction house (hi Leon), I can't imagine he would ever bite into any of what I am saying, let alone in a public forum. And I am sure Leon would keep stating shilling is illegal (again, we all agree) even if he did not run an auction house.

"For many people who were shilled, when they turn to resell the item that's when they realize that they didn't pay a fair market price for the item."

I disagree with this statement because if they were voluntarily paying a price for an item, it is by definition a fair market price. I do not consider what a second person was willing to pay -- either genuinely or shillingly -- as being a more true indicator of fair market value. Moreover, your concerns arise even in the context of a fixed price sale.

I have a fundamental problem with people who are willing to pay a certain price for an item wanting someone to protect them from their own actions/determination of fair value. We have lots of consumer protection laws, and not all of them are beneficial to our society.

"It's not unlike when someone buys a card at market value, then when he turns to resell he's informed the card's a reprint."

Actually, I think it is closer to when someone buys a card at a fixed price, then when he turns to resell he learns that there is no market for the card -- similar to your explanation below:

"Many collectors and non-collectors don't know the true market value of their items until they try and sell-- I'm sure we've all had personal experiences with this--, and value, grade and even true identification are not discovered until that time. This is why unhappy revelations about worth, authenticity and the honesty of the dealer sometimes don't happen until long after the items were purchased."

Everything you just described is true even if we lived in a world without shilling. As such, these concerns cannot alone provide a rationale for why shilling is illegal.

"Besides, if shilling is illegal, the theoretical arguments are moot. Theoretical arguments don't make it any less illegal."

Of course not. Fortunately, we live in a country where I can question the rationale behind our laws. Most people feel cheated by shilling -- it's in their gut, they just know it's bad, etc. So we have laws to protect people from this and other bad stuff, real and perceived. Some laws that we have to protect people actually may hurt our economy or our enjoyment of life. It's kind of like mandatory seat belt laws, or motorcycle helmet laws. There are plenty of people happy to ride their bikes without the government telling them to keep their heads covered.



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