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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Many other factors have gone into the obsession with the T206 Wagner, which were covered well by other posters in this excellent thread.

I just want to respond to the issue of Wagner's place among the greats of BB. I almost posted this on the Cobb vs. Wagner thread a few weeks back, but never got around to it. I'm puzzled why some people seem to have an itch to downgrade Wagner's achievements, but I've seen this emerge in a number of posts.

Adam is right: Wagner's cards are undervalued, if anything. If card prices reflect greatness, they should be well above Cobb's, and nearly at Ruthian levels.

In Bill James' Historical Abstract, an amazing book anyone on this board would enjoy, he lists Wagner as the second greatest player in major league history. Period. Not the second greatest dead-ball shortstop. Only Ruth ranks higher in his system. (Cobb is fifth.)

Among his shortstop ratings, James notes (p. 594) that the "difference between the number one shortstop (Wagner) and the number two shortstop...is about the same as the difference between the number two shortstop and the number 30 shortstop."

No player ever dominated his position more than Wagner. I believe that no player except Ruth ever dominated his era the way Wagner dominated the 1900s.

James (pp. 548-549) argues that Wagner's 1908 season, placed in context of the offensive levels of the time, ranks as the greatest single season of the 20th century, outstripping even Ruth's best.


FYI, James' top ten shortstops:
2. Vaughan
3. Ripken
4. Yount
5. Banks
6. Larkin
7. Ozzie
8. Cronin
9. Trammell
10. Reese
*(#30 is Dick Groat.)
*A-Rod places 17th in his ratings, which go through the 2000 season. No doubt he'd be higher by now-- although it appears he's no longer a shortstop....

3 cheers for the Dutchman!

Tim


PS. With apologies to the Rogers Hornsby contingent: James calls comparisons of Wagner to Hornsby similar to "confusing Ken Griffey with Bernard Gilkey"