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Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B
Ryan has the all-time records for Ks and BBs. Cy Young holds the records for both wins and losses. It seems like they both get a lot of grief for the negatives in these online discussions.
Connie Mack, of course, is the managerial record holder for both wins and losses, and "only" 5 World Series titles in the 48 seasons he managed when the World Series existed. For not being a Yankee manager, that's actually not half bad. For being the manager of the mostly lowly A's, it's extra impressive. So, looking only at the losses, I suppose Connie wasn't a great manager... /s
Comparing Ryan to Perry...sure, some stats certainly line up, but isn't selectively omitting the other stats just catering to your own viewpoint? Other stats/accomplishments differ greatly between the two men. Those differences are why he was given the extra attention and adulation. It only makes sense. Ryan's 7 no-hitters to Perry's one. More than twice the strikouts than Perry in just a few more seasons of play (and yes, more than twice the walks, but I guess I'm fine with being more forgiving).
Why do the people who come down hard on Ryan like to be so dismissive of his most important records? Like I've already said, he was a different kind of pitcher and was great in his own way. Seaver was great in another way, as was Walter Johnson, etc.
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K's and BB's are not dismissed, in fact I very directly acknowledged them in the written text. For the third time, what I said is that Perry and Ryan are "pretty similar" in regards to their career
value. Ryan got there with the flashy K's, as I said very specifically. Perry had the more balanced route to basically the same value. Again, as I said, "Striking out tons of people and then walking in runs doesn't really help a team anymore than a more conventional stat line that adds up to the same run performance." When it comes to objective value over large sample sizes, it doesn't really matter how a pitcher gives up runs, it matters that he gives them up or does not give them up.
It is not coming down hard on Ryan to look at his objective value, it just does not reach the desirable conclusion. I said he had a heck of a valuable career. It is not insulting to look at his actual career numbers. I really do not care about emotional arguments.