[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So to be clear, some of you guys are accusing Board members like Scott B, Scott R, Al C and Lee B of trying to deceive buyers into overpaying?

Sorry I didn't respond earlier Peter, but I see our new CPA here on the forum, Nicolo/raulus, has been having a pretty good go at you.

But as for this comment of yours, c'mon, you seriously want to accuse people of accusing some of our auction house owning/operating brethren here on the forum of trying to deceive people to somehow cheat them out of more money? OMG, you're so much better than this. And in another post of yours you responded about making this quoted post above because someone used the word "trick" in describing what was possibly happening. Well, the OP used the term "psychological tactic" in the very first post in this thread. It was I that used the term "psychological selling trick" back in post #6 of this thread, so quite obviously you are accusing me of saying Scott, Scott, Lee, and Al are basically trying to cheat people out of money?!?!?!

Maybe you should go back and read my post #6 again, because quite frankly, after that post of mine, no one really needed to say anything else to the OP, he already had the answer. And the last line I had in that post #6 is the biggest, most important, and most applicable of all in regard to this whole thing.

First off, AHs need to make money to stay in business, so of course they're going to charge someone a commission, and that isn't deceiving or cheating anyone. And when looking for consignors, AHs know that to consignors, it always looks better when they aren't supposedly going to pay for the entire commission out of their pocket. Go ask Scott, Scott, Lee, and Al how many consignments they'd possibly lose if instead of say charging a consignor a 15% sellers commission, and then charging the purchaser a 20% buyer's premium, one of them decided to simply charge the consignor a 29% seller's commission and there is no buyer's premium at all. (I'll explain later why the AH would only have to charge the consignor a 29% seller's commission.) Meanwhile, all their AH competitors continue to offer the split seller's commission/buyer's premium concept, and only ask for a 15 % seller's commission. So a potential consignor comes to all four AH owner's with the same item and hears three will charge him a 15% seller's commission. while one will charge him a 29% seller's commission. Who do you honestly think is most likely going to get turned down first to auction the item?

Think about it, the consignor upon hearing one auction house wants to charge him almost double what everyone else is going to charge, is likely going to immediately tune out everything else that AH owner is then going to say and try explaining to them about how they'll potentially still end up with same amount of money if they consigned the item with them at the much higher SC.

See, in your perfect world, say you as the potential bidder/buyer value this consignor's item at $120. So, if it gets consigned to one of the other AHs still doing the split seller's/buyer's fees of 15% and 20%, respectively, you immediately know you'll have a 20% buyer's premium to pay in that AH's auction, so you determine up front your max bid will only be $100, because then adding the 20% buyer's premium of $20 ($100 X 20%) to your max bid gets you to the $120 amount you feel the item is worth. And let's say you do end up winning the auction for your $100 max bid. You pay the $20 buyer's premium, the consignor ends up paying a $15 seller's commission ($100 X 15%), and the AH ends up making $35 ($20 BP + $15 SC). Meanwhile you, the winner bidder, paid $120 for the item ($100 hammer price + $20 BP), ignoring S&H and sales tax charges for simplicity's sake. And the consignor gets $85 ($100 hammer price - $15 SC).

Now what if the consignor instead went with the AH charging him a 29% SC, and there was no BP? You, in your perfect world once again, still value the item at $120. But since this AH isn't charging a BP, you put in a max bid for the full value of $120, and end up winning. In this case the AH makes approximately the same $35 as in the other scenario ($120 hammer price X 29% SC = $34.80). That's where the revised SC of 29% comes from. Meanwhile, you as the buyer pay the same $120 as in the other scenario, just now all of it as the auction hammer price. And the consignor ends up getting approximately the same net cash of $85 as in the other scenario ($120 hammer price - $34.80 SC = $85.20).

But all that only works out in a perfect world that you apparently live in. Consignors most likely aren't going to want to consign with an AH charging a higher SC, even it shouldn't make a difference in what they end up netting on their item sold (ask the brethren). Not all bidders think and act like you apparently do, and can be prone to getting caught up in the heat/excitement of an auction and forgetting about the BP. Seeing or not seeing that bid commitment amount, including the BP, on your auction bid list can, and does, influence many people, whether you think so or not. Our mind's play tricks on us, and often if we don't actually see something, we can just keep ignoring it. What's the old adage, "Out of sight, out of mind!". And there's a reason old adages are old adages, because they are very often fundamentally true!

Scott, Scott, Lee, and Al aren't trying to deceive and cheat anyone. They are trying to be competitive, and still pay the bills, and offer their services and fees in at least a somewhat consistent manner with their competition. They all fully disclose the costs and fees they charge buyers in their auctions. At the same time, they are all actually working for their consignors, who are their true clients, in trying to get them the highest final sales prices possible for their items. They do not work for the bidders and buyers in trying to get them to pay the least amount possible for things that they want. So if you actually think them using techniques like not including the BP in with current bids on auction bid pages is somehow deceptive and cheating, think again. Post #6, last line.

And isn't it you who often likes to make/use the "slippery slope" reference? Well, if all the auction houses did start including those BPs with the current bid amounts on their auction pages, you know damn well someone will then come along and start bitching about how they deceptively didn't include the sales tax, the S&H, or some other fees and charges, along with the auction bids amounts as well. And God forbid, if some AH did try to include all those other costs in updating the final total costs of items being bid on, in real time during an auction, when it turns out just one time after an auction ends that a winning bidder's final actual amount due doesn't agree with the in-auction totals because of some glitch, error, or whatever, the AH will just get bitched at some more.

And if you somehow still think AHs using or following psychological practices or tricks to get better prices for their consignors are being deceptive and thus trying to cheat people, then you better go ahead and similarly accuse most every business in the world that does any kind of marketing and advertising as being a deceptive cheat as well. Everything advertised and marketed is done so as to increase sales and profits, and ultimately get the most money possible out of every buyer. What do girls with big boobs, or NFL quarterbacks, really have to do with selling cars or home/auto insurance? As I noted in post #6, why do stores sell so many items for odd prices like $1.99, $4.95, or $9.99, why not just round off things to even dollar amounts then? Or what about how stores having sales very often list not just the sales price, but the total amount you'll save. Or even how stores will put shelves with certain items or the most expensive items always at the eye level of the average female shopper. And don't forget about impulse items at checkouts, and on and on. Marketing and advertising is all about visual and other psychological tricks and influences to get people to buy this and not that, and to pay more than less for things. And those visual influences can include showing certain things right out front, or not always showing them right out front, like BPs in auctions.

And speaking of old adages and fundamental truths, there's one that maybe kind of goes along with all this. Had something to do with when certain people's lips are moving I think.

Again, post #6, last line.