Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy
So how did not hitting doubles end up with him leading the Yankees all-time in doubles? Past Gehrig, Ruth, Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra, Mattingly (a doubles machine) - you name it, everyone that ever wore the pinstripes.
And yes, he mostly was a singles hitter. But he's #6 all-time, and in fewer years (20) than anyone in front of him. In fact, you have to go all the way down to #15 on the all-time hit list to find anyone with fewer years (some guy named Pujols with 19).
Jeter's not the greatest Yankee or greatest shortstop ever, but he was great. And in an era where PEDs had a major impact on the game, his name was never mentioned. Which can't be said of his teammates (Giambi, Pettite) or his biggest rival at SS - ARod.
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First of all. Don Mattingly? The "doubles machine" had 7,003 career at bats. Jeter had 11,195 at bats. You think Jeter might have a few more doubles in 4,192 more at bats? DiMaggio? He had even fewer at bats than Mattingly, 6,821. And he was too busy hitting triples (131) and home runs (361). Gehrig? 8,001 at bats. Only 3,194 fewer AB than Jeter. And Gehrig had 163 triples, 493 home runs. Ruth? 8,399 at bats. 2,796 fewer than Jeter. And Ruth had 136 triples and 714 home runs. Mantle? 8,102 at bats. 72 triples, 536 home runs, and, oh yeah, he lost a lot of at bats because he was getting walked 1,733 times. Berra only had 7,555 at bats, and like Mantle, he wasn't a great doubles machine.
Think about the questions you're asking before you ask them. Why did no Yankee have more doubles than Jeter? The ones you listed had far fewer at bats, and were generally trotting around the bases after hitting the ball into the seats! And by the way, Mattingly was a double machine at his peak. 1984-1986, he hit 145 doubles, or 50 per 162 games. From 1997 until the end of his career, he averaged 38 doubles per 162 games, only 6 more than Jeter's 32.
For his career, on a 162 game basis, and 743 plate appearances per 162 games played, Jeter averaged 32 doubles. He went over 40 doubles one time in a season. Once.
That's not hitting doubles. His career total looks impressive until you look at how long he played, how many plate appearances he had. That he hit over 500 is merely a product of how long he played the game.
There are, as of this posting, 63 players in Major League history with over 500 doubles. Derek Jeter averaged one double every 23.17 plate appearances in his career, the third lowest rate of all 63 players on the list. Only Willie Mays (a double every 23.89) and Rickey Henderson (a double every 26.17) had a lower double-per-PA-rate. Willie Mays walked 1,464 times, had 140 triples and hit 660 home runs. Mays was doing a lot more than hitting doubles, so the relatively low double rate can be excused. And Henderson? Well, he walked 2,190 times, more than double Jeter's 1,082 walks. Then there's Henderson's 1,406 stolen bases, which is only 1,048 more than Jeter. In short, the other two guys with a lower double rate were doing other things. Mays was sending the ball into the seats, and Henderson was getting a free pass, and then turning that walk or single into a double a few seconds later.
It's great Jeter has 3,465 hits. Respectfully, I said he was a great pure hitter. A .310 AVG is fantastic for that long. You'll get absolutely no argument from me there. But that's also the problem. Offensively, that's really all that Jeter did. We're talking Hall of Fame, here. Within the context of the offensive players in Cooperstown, Jeter, comparatively, didn't do nearly as much as most of the greats. My contention has never been that Derek Jeter didn't belong. He does, clearly. No, my whole contention, from post one, has been that he didn't measure up to the immortals of the game-Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle from the Yankees, as well as Cobb, Mathewson, Johnson, Musial, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc. Once the subject of induction on 100% of the vote came up last year with Mariano Rivera, and it was mentioned that Jeter would probably replicate it-there I had an issue with it. In the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Nope. But when people discuss it beyond the hallowed halls of Cooperstown, they'll point to a 100% vote as evidence that "Jeter was one of the small handful of all-time greats". No, he wasn't. He wasn't on par with Honus Wagner, who is still the gold standard for Jeter's position. Jeter wasn't even the best shortstop on his own team for much of his career. Ripken and Yount were both, in their prime, better than Jeter. Nomar Garciaparra, whose career was ruined by injuries (why? I won't speculate here, though the argument made that it could have been due to steroids, given the others on the Red Sox we know used)-he was every bit Jeter's equal offensively, and better defensively.
I give Derek Jeter a
hell of a lot of credit for playing as long as he did, and at that position. Playing 156, 157, 158 games every year, while people are sliding into you turning the double play--his durability, and his consistently high average, are major checks in the plus column for him. I mentioned Garciaparra. Jeter was still an All Star by the time Garciaparra's career, for all intents and purposes, was over. No matter how you slice it, almost 3,500 hits, and nearly 2,000 runs scored is impressive. It's just not the creme de la creme.
-He did not walk. Of the 32 players with over 3,000 hits, Jeter is 24th in walk rate at 8.6%
-He didn't hit for power. Of the 32 players over 3,000 hits, Jeter's 870 extra base hits (25.11% of his hits total) is 26th. Albert Pujols ranks #1, as 1,333 of his 3,202 hits were extra base hits.
-He hit singles. A lot of them. Of the 32 3,000 hit members, Jeter is 5th all-time in singles with 2,595, and three of the guys ahead of him, Cobb, Eddie Collins and Cap Anson, played in the dead ball era. Only Pete Rose, with 3,215 singles, had more in the modern era. But Rose had 3,288 more plate appearances to get them.
Typically, an immortal, an all-time great, does more than one thing well, right? Jeter got on base, and scored runs. That's it. I just can't label him an all-time great, not when so many Hall of Famers did so many things better than him.