Some more metrics which only consider offensive contribution.
James explains in his book,
The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, why he believes
runs created is an essential thing to measure:
With regard to an offensive player, the first key question is how many runs have resulted from what he has done with the bat and on the basepaths. Willie McCovey hit .270 in his career, with 353 doubles, 46 triples, 521 home runs and 1,345 walks -- but his job was not to hit doubles, nor to hit singles, nor to hit triples, nor to draw walks or even hit home runs, but rather to put runs on the scoreboard. How many runs resulted from all of these things?[1]
Runs created
Griffey 1,994 (22nd)
Jeter 1,900 (27th)
Adjusted Batting Runs
Griffey 511 (42nd)
Jeter 276 (150)
Adjusted Batting Wins
Griffey 47.6 (50th)
Jeter 25.3 (180th)
Offensive Win %
Griffey .663 (161st)
Jeter .597 (42ns active)
WPA win probability added
Griffey 46.6 (42nd)
Jeter 31.4 (89th)
wOBA (career weighted on base average)
Griffey .384
Jeter .362
Fangraphs offense value (batting and base running combined above average)
Griffey 440.2
Jeter 360.1
RAR - runs above average (batting + fielding + base running + replacement + positional)
Griffey 778.8
Jeter 759.3
Batting value
Griffey 451.4
Jeter 317.2
These different metrics take into consideration the players positions, their production with their bats, and with their legs. Time after time, metric after metric, Ken Griffey Jr, even with one injury after another slowing him down for much of the second half of his career, is ahead of Jeter, in many instances way ahead. These are standard and Sabermetric analyses. Griffey creates more runs. He increases win probability better. He just does more.
Now you can say that these stats don't take into consideration what would happen if Jeter singled 300 times in a season, and stole 200 bases in 200 tries, with a chicken on his head. It doesn't matter. Ken Griffey Jr was the better player in pretty much every measurable available.
And again, when compared against the greats that have played the same positions: JAWS rankings
Ken Griffey Jr is ranked the 5th best center fielder
Derek Jeter is ranked the 12th best shortstop
I also wanted to bring up something you said earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120
Griffey hit more home runs granted, but he had almost 30 points less in his career batting average and half as many stolen bases as Jeter did. Everything else; doubles, triples, walks, strike outs are about the same. The only thing Griffey did that Jeter didn't was hit home runs, but Griffey never had a 200 hit season, he only hit above .310 once in his career while Jeter averaged above .310 throughout the entirety of his career. Really, it would just be a preference argument at this point. Offensive WAR gives the edge to Jeter, OPS+ gives it to Griffey. Do you like home runs or hits? Otherwise they were very similar.
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Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a season, either. Is Derek Jeter a better hitter than him, too? Really, getting 200 hits in a season isn't a great accomplishment. In one of the seasons he got 200 hits, (202 to be precise), he only hit .309. He got 200 hits because he came up 654 times. He actually came to the plate 752 times.
Griffey had half as many stolen bases as Jeter did. Ok, but Griffey wasn't really a base stealer. And neither was Jeter. You keep bringing up his base stealing like it's something impressive. Stealing 354 bases, again, really isn't that impressive when you consider he's played 20 years. 61 people have stolen more bases than Jeter. And if I were able to run a report of players that averaged more than the 18 bases a season Jeter has stolen, the list would be a lot longer. If Jeter were a home run hitter, and I said he was 61st all-time on that list, would you be impressed? Know who is 61st on the all time home run list? Harold Baines. Was Harold Baines a great power hitter?
But back to the "Ken Griffey never had a 200 hit season". Again, so what? Ted Williams never did. I'd wager a lot of Hall of Famers never did. Robin Yount only had one 200 hit season. I bet that Griffey is sitting home tonight thinking to himself "if I'd only hit more bloop singles to right field!"
Know how many 200 hit seasons there have been in Major League history? 482. That's right. Jeter had 8 200 hit seasons. But some of that is a product of where he hits in the lineup. Jeter has 4,644 plate appearances where he was the leadoff hitter, and 6,591 plate appearances where he batted second. Griffey had 8,932 plate appearances batting third, and 984 batting cleanup. This netted Jeter an extra 67 at bats per 162 games. That's an extra 20 hits per season just because of where he hit in the lineup. Jeter was a table setter. It was his job to get on base for the run producers in the lineup.
But you know what is impressive? Hitting 50 home runs in a season. Unlike the dizzying number of 200 hit seasons that have been accomplished (if you want to call it an accomplishment), there have only been 43 50 home run seasons in the history of the Major Leagues. The dead ball era ended in 1919. So this is now 95 years since the dead ball era. Let's just break this down.
Major League Baseball was founded in 1869. So, that's what, 145 years of baseball? Well, the National League was founded in 1876, I believe, but we'll go with 145 seasons.
482 200-hit seasons / 145 seasons. That's an average of 3.32 200 hit seasons per year. That's probably low, as the rules were different then, but I'm feeling generous.
The deadball era ended in 1919. So, from 1920 until now, there have been 94 seasons.
43 50-home run seasons / 94 years. That's 0.4577 50 home run seasons per year. So, about one every other year.
482 200 hit seasons
43 50 home run seasons
Of those 43 50 home run seasons, Griffey Jr accounts for 2 of them.
Let's look at players that have had multiple seasons of 40 + home runs:
Ruth 11
Rodriguez 8
Bonds 8
Killebrew 8
Aaron 8
Griffey Jr 7
So in the history of the Major Leagues, only Babe Ruth, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Harmon Killebrew and Henry Aaron have had more 40 home run seasons than Ken Griffey Jr's 7.
What about 50 home run seasons?
Sosa, McGwire and Ruth 4 each
Rodriguez 3
Griffey Jr, Mantle, Mays, Kiner, Foxx 2 each
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120
You're right, if Griffey was healthy he would have had one of the best careers in the history of the sport! But he didn't remain healthy  If Jeter wasn't injured in 2013 and didn't have the burden of playing an extra 158 post season games, maybe he would have had another couple 200 hit seasons. But he won't |
Funny, even though Junior got hurt, a career line with a .284 AVG, 1,662 runs, 630 home runs, 1,836 RBI, 7 Silver Slugger Awards, 10 Gold Gloves and an MVP season...he still had one of the greatest careers in Major League history. If he hadn't gotten hurt, he might have broken all the records. But 6th in home runs, 15th in RBI, 13th in total bases...all while being one of the great center fielders in the game's history...I'd say he did have one of the great careers.
But I'm not sure how the number of post season games Jeter played affected the number of 200 hit seasons he had. Injuries might have cost him a shot at another. But the number of post season games played should have no impact whatsoever. Several months pass between the end of the World Series and spring training. So Jeter's playing in 150 or so post season games is not even worth mentioning as it impacts his career regular season stats.
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that nothing I could show you will change your mind. Ken Griffey Jr was the better all around player. Jeter was outstanding, too. Both men will be first ballot Hall of Famers. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.