Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B
Why so hung up on titles?
For titles someone just has to be on a great team. And there have been plenty of marginal players on great teams with titles (Bucky %&%$ Dent) and some great players on lousy teams without titles.
Teds point about Mantle is an important one, there are some players who make the team better, some even to the point of making the team great by making everyone around them better. And that's a very hard thing to put to numbers. It's a bit more obvious in other sports, Jordan, Bird, Magic. All of them made the rest of the team much better.
I never saw Mantle play, except maybe a time or two on television before I really got sports. (Until I was 10 it was more science, especially space for me) But there are so many people who talk about how he was such a force on the team I have to think there's something to it.
Another player in Baseball who seemed to make his teams that much better was Don Baylor. At the end of his career, 3 straight trips to the World series with 3 different teams. I'm not so sure that has been done before or since. He didn't really get much credit for that, but it is a hard things to put to numbers.
The opposite is Arod. Huge numbers, for years. But Seattle only won their division his second year when he didn't play much. The next few they were 3rd or 2nd. They won the division the year after he left. Texas wasn't good, but when he arived they were only a bad year removed from a division title. With him they finished last all 3 years. In NY, he went to a great team. One that had won a string of division titles and wasn't that far off from having won 3 straight world series.
With him, they still won, but had possibly the worst playoff collapse ever. And except for 2009 haven't done much in the postseason. In 09 I think they won despite Arod, how much better would they have been without him from 04 till now?
Steve B
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Since you referenced Don Baylor, I want to point out Joe Morgan's record of success.
In '72 he joined a Reds team that had tied for 4th the previous year.He helped them to 4 division titles in 5 years,with 3 World Series appearances and 2 Championships. He was NL MVP those two years.
In 1980 he joins the Astros,who had never won the division. Ever. They won it that year with Morgan.
In 1981 he goes to the Giants, a 5th place team the year before he joined them. It took two years, but he had them in the race all the way until the final weekend in '82. They finished 2 games behind Atlanta.
In 1983 he went to the Phillies, who finished a strong second the previous year. They made it to the WS with him that year.
Every team he went to got better, usually very quickly. I've never understood why he doesn't get more credit.