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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Does anyone know how many of each of these cards are in existence?<br /><br /><br /><br />1. t206 Honus Wagner 34.63 % (116) <br />2. n172 Cap Anson (in uniform) 15.52 % (52) <br />3. Just So Tobacco Cy Young 11.04 % (37) <br />4. Four Base Hits n690 King Kelly 15.82 % (53) <br />5. 1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth 22.99 % (77) <br />Total votes: 335 <br />

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>I believe there is only 1 Just So Young, and 4 Anson/Uniforms. Not sure about the numbers on the other three...

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Posted By: <b>Bryan Long</b><p>That the Cy Young card got the least amount of votes - but if I had my choice that is the one that I would want. I should know - I voted for it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>My website: <a href="http://photobucket.com/albums/b45/trib01" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://photobucket.com/albums/b45/trib01</a>/

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>c areful study, as far as i know.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My guess would be: Just So Cy Young- one known; Four Base Hit Kelly-two known; N172 Anson in uniform- four known (three private, one in the Metropolitan Museum); Baltimore News Ruth- 5 to 7 known, in both blue and red; T206 Wagner-50 to 75 known. Last one is least accurate, of course.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think you are dead on on your estimates. The myth about the 3rd FBH Kelly is from an untrustworthy source.....who has told me he has complete sets of Lone Jack, Just So, FBH, Yum Yum, G & B etc......not very believable, imo...

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Posted By: <b>Rich Jacobs</b><p>Barry and Leon: Any estimate of T216 Wagner Mino numbers? I've got one, Hal's got one, and there's another on Ebay now.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Who are you calling "Not Very Believable"??<br /><br />I DO own those sets...<br /><br />or at least I WILL as soon as the flux capacitor is back up and running!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.addamsfamily.com/addams01/bttf/img100a.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>leon, in my converstations with a very respectible source the FBH kelly is actually the most abundant of the FBH cards known and that there are around 4-5 known but probably only around 2 that are in private collections

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>David- if only two Kellys are in private collections, where do the other 2-3 reside? I'm not asking you to name names, just back up the provenance. Rich, as far as T216 Mino Wagners, haven't a clue, but if you can name three, figure 5. There's always a couple that we just don't know about, maybe more.

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>i thought the burdick and whaton-tigar collections both had one and then there is leon's which would make three so i am one short

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>It's in someone's attic waiting to be found and sold on ebay... <br /><br />Hopefully it isn't found in the same attic with a T206 Wagner, Baltimore News Ruth, Just So Young and an N172 Anson in uniform (all cards having slightly burnt looking edges and generous borders.....)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No one has either confirmed or even posited that both Wharton-Tiger and Burdick have a Four Base Hit of Kelly. I've seen the Burdick collection close to ten times and have the collection catalog and I know nothing of it. My opinion- there are two known- Leon's and Corey's- and that's it.

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>barry, you certainly know more then i do, so i stand corrected. are the other players in the set unique or are there multiple copies of those aswell?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I haven't heard of a duplicate of any others, but I don't presume to know for sure. A good question is why are they so incredibly rare? How tiny was the production of them in the year of issue? The survival rate is miniscule.

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>excellent point barry, and at the heart of all 19th century issues. one that comes to mind are california league oj's. why are these non existent? has any info been found on FBH cigarettes? it is as if the FBH were not issued in packs but rather store premiums like boston garters.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>If I could have (not resell, but have) any of them, I'd take the Ruth. Think about it--Babe Ruth's first baseball card, his pre-rookie card if you will.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>We call those "PROOKIE" cards around here.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Around where? Is that a local dialect thing?

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I believe that has to be some type of southeastern US dialect that comes from a tribal band of card board collectors that is in serious need of more reasons to buy more card board. <br /><br />A little test: Hal, does that make the Zeenut DeMaggio card a PROOKIE?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>In Brooklyn we call the Baltimore News Ruth gold.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Yes, there are some very expensive PROOKIE cards out there:<br /><br />Baltimore News Ruth<br /><br />Zeenut DiMaggio<br /><br />Old Judge Omaha Kid Nichols<br /><br />T210 Stengel<br /><br />Modesto McGwire (price falling like a rock!)

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The Four Base Hits were issued like the Kalamazoo Bats....in cigar boxes (big). I can not confirm this as I have never seen any Four Base Hits packaging. I do have this:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1131052469.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So now here's the question: if we started a new poll- What would collectors rather own, a key player's rookie card or his pre-rookie, which one would win? Obviously a few ground rules would need to be in effect; a Modesto McGwire is a piece of junk ( I hear you have to pay someone to take them from you), but an N172 Kid Nichols is not. It may not be his major league rookie card, but it is highly coveted nonetheless. I'll go first -Pre-Rookie. Others may follow.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The Modesto McGwire actually came out in 1986, one year after the Topps USA RC. The other four cards that Hal listed however are legitimate PROOKIES. To answer Barry's question, in each one of the above examples, I would take the PROOKIE card over the rookie card.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Of course, every MLB player has a rookie card, so they are common. Pre-rookie and false-rookie cards are far more rare. Just look at the Mantle false-rookie card's performance compared to that of his actual true-rookie card.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>You guys are using the wrong terminology. It's XRC.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>Which card I would want to own depends on the player - I'd rather own a Zeenut DiMaggio, but an M101-4/5 Ruth.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Greg made a good point. Every collector has a preference, whether it's major league rookie or minor league card. It just depends upon one's favorite card of the player.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>XRC implies a big league card issued outside a regular set (for example, the 1986 Topps Traded Bonds). The cards we are discussing are minor league issues predating the player's MLB card. <br /><br />As for me, I would take a pre-rookie every time for vintage players. In addition to being much rarer, they are much more interesting to me.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I have it on good authority that Four Base Hits was put out of business during production of its card set after Hal Lewis' great great grandad won a class action lawsuit against them.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>LEON and BRIAN -<br /><br />Did you read the part of the thread where a new poll was being recommended? New poll would be giving the people the choice of which PROOKIE, XRC or Pre Rookie card they would like to have:<br /><br />Baltimore News Ruth<br /><br />Zeenut DeMaggio (gotta keep the name spelled incorrectly as on the card)<br /><br />Old Judge Omaha Kid Nichols<br /><br />T210 Stengel<br /><br />Modesto McGwire <br /><br />It's time for a new one anyway.... <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I'm open for a new poll.....whatever ya'll want.....I am not sure the cards you put down would be that great in comparison. A Modesto vs Baltimore News? On this board I would hope it would be 0% vs 100% for that one....regardless of the value.....but again, I am open as I am sure Brian is.....I will start a new thread about what kind of poll is most wanted....thanks

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- Sounds like you want to take a poll to see what kind of poll the board wants. How about choosing say ten cards where both the rookie and pre-rookie are very desirable- such as N172 and N300 Nichols- and see what collectors prefer most. Other issues could involve cards such as the Just So Young- is it a rookie because it is major league, or is not because it was only regionally distributed? We could form a committee that would form another committee to decide which cards would best fit in. You get my point.

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>lack of interest, or fear to speak up in the face of all these pre, x and p rookies...<br /><br />YAWN...

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>What a shame a good thread got hijacked by the talk of rookie cards. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>The T210 Shoeless Joe Jackson card is another "false rookie" (or FROOKIE) card... since it came out AFTER his first major league card.<br /><br />The 1952 Topps Mantle is another famous FROOKIE.<br /><br />Like I said...<br /><br />there are some very valuable PROOKIE and FROOKIE cards out there!!

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>FROOKIE and PROOKIE cards are fun, but I prefer minor league cards of players issued while active, following their MLB career.<br /><br />Like the Zeenut bogus named card really depicting Shoeless Joe (which one is that)?