let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw&nbsp; </b><p>There has been a lot of discussion about whether a seller can reasonably sell things "as is, no returns." Many people have come down hard on those who follow these processes. Before we crack back on Joe Blow selling a few cards on ebay, let's take into account that many of the auction houses flatly refuse returns on items (I reviewed my catalogue collection and found the following: Leland's: "ALL SALES ARE FINAL. NO RETURNS", Grey Flannel: "ALL SALES ARE FINAL, NO RETURNS", About Time Auctions: "Professionally graded cards can NOT be returned."). I'm not favorably disposed towards these no return auctions, but I don't begrudge someone the right to state such terms clearly and I think it is unfair to treat people who do so as though they are committing some kind of crime or immoral act.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>The auction houses have to pay their consignors in a reasonable amount of time.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>RobertS</b><p>The big auction houses also take seriously issues of counterfeits and anything that can adversely impact their businesses...

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Adam, the issue about 'as is' was when forgeries were being sold. Irrelevant to Leland's or MastroNet's return policy, they have to give a refund if they sell a forgery. In fact, I'm nearly certain that if MastroNet sold you a counterfeit T206 Honus Wagner that they would offer a complete refund and an apology even if it was a year later.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Scott, David, Robert -- all correct.<BR><BR>There's an important distinction between knowing something is authentic and not taking a return and using ambiguous language (i.e., "as is") to hide a lack of knowledge or to fraudulently peddle counterfeits.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>is the language "all sales final, absolutely no returns" because sometimes some of the auction houses like Lelands offer very small and out of focus scans and it is hard to detect alteration, i.e. trimming. Before you rush to say "well you knew it in the first place, it's your own fault," yes, you are right. But it seems to me that when a card is described as EX or EXMT there is an implied warranty that the card has not been altered and regardless of any disclaimer, there should be a return allowed if the alteration is verified by an impartial professional grader.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think reputable auction houses would take a return under that circumstance. I also feel that that is a serious mistake (missing a major problem). Even Verkman gave me an immediate refund on an obvious, undisputed trim (no comments on the word "trim"<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )regards

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>You have to use your common sense and deal with the auction houses you trust. We know, for instance, that Leland's does not have the expertise to judge if cards are trimmed - well, if you buy from them I wouldn't want to hear any crying afterward. And if you buy an "ex" lot from a major auction house and it ends up getting an average grade of "vg", well, we all know that grading is somewhat objective, so tuff luck. If you buy from Festberg I feel that you deserve whatever you get. If you buy from Verkman, you already know there is a good chance that "EX" really means that the bottom 1/8" of the card will be missing.<BR><BR>But if you buy a card from Lipset or Mastro and it has damage that you could not have seen in the scan and that is inconsistent with the grade they gave it (affects it my more than one grade), I'm sure they would work with you. If not, though, you could certainly mark them off your list and chalk it up to experience. I've personally been burned by two auction houses, had a slightly unpleasant experience from a third, and had nothing but acceptable experiences with all the rest. If you don't play the game, you will never get burned, but you will also miss out on a lot of fun.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>First of all, these damned pop-ups are driving me NUTS!!!<BR><BR>Okay, I meant that grading is "subjective" obviously, not "objective". And don't ask me what a "tor" is.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>Tom</b><p>and I can speak from experience with Mastronet. Actually Mastro and Steinbach.......I bought a lot of all 4 T206 Cobbs when I was activly pursuing my set of T206's. They were described as Greenback (G/VG with big stain on back) and the rest as VGEX to EX and relatively clean. As not one of the 'premier' lots, they didn't have super huge photos but they all looked clean and neat. After receiving the lot, it was clear that the bat off shoulder pose was CLEARLY trimmed and should have been noted as such. The others were EXACTLY as described and actually a hair better conditioned. I called them and talked to Brian Marren I believe (maybe not, don't know now) but I told them that I didn't want to return the whole lot (and that wasn't really offered) but that I wouldn't have paid $2K for the lot if I'd known the bat off was trimmed. After discussing it, they eventually gave me like $250-$300 or so of a refund and we went on from there. I was impressed and have basically won something in every auction since (minus one or two). The Green pose graded a 3 and the other two graded 5's so I didn't do too bad anyway.........but they had a customer for life. <BR>REAL STORY!

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I found an altered card and he offered me several alternatives, sending a refund check immediately for the lot in question.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>&lt;&lt;We know, for instance, that Leland's does not have the expertise to judge if cards are trimmed - well, if you buy from them I wouldn't want to hear any crying afterward.&gt;&gt; <BR><BR>Well, perhaps I am a little naive but I trust a larger auction house to auction off cards which are unaltered. I didn't assume that Leland's would have any cards which might be trimmed (and I won't know that until they arrive), as opposed to Verkman or Festberg, etc. I put Leland's in the same category as Smolin's, Edward's and Mastro, maybe I shouldn't have. We'll see...

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>And I don't have a problem with an occasional altered card slipping through, especially when I know the auction house will take care of it. But some of the auction houses either lack the expertise to prevent problems from slipping through, or they knowingly auction altered cards. Fortunately we know what to expect from all the auction houses, so it's not much of a problem - just pick and choose accordingly. <BR><BR>I had debated putting my opinions about auction houses on my vintage links site, but decided not to. Instead, I just listed all the auction houses that I'm aware of, figuring anyone that goes to my site also reads this board and can make their own decisions.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>When I returned a lot to Lipset due to what I felt was overgrading he issued a full refund promptly, but with a note asking me not to bid again. No working with me, no discussion, nothing, just my money and a bar from future auctions with no explanation offered (in response to a post I made here about it, he later emailed to tell me that he told me not to bid again because we did not see eye to eye on grading--but it was one lot of three that I've bought from him in the past, and I was happy with the other lots, so I don't know, I suppose I'm the sort who people think is baring his teeth when he smiles . . . Maybe I should go to charm school. <BR><BR>PS: I don't want to get into it again, Lew. No need to respond.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Grading is "subjective", so if a card is off by one grade I wouldn't expect a refund; two grades and I would complain. In my case there was an alteration to the card (small pin-hole), which is a completely different issue. There is nothing subjective about alteration, and any auction house worth their salt will issue a refund, which Lew Lipset did for me. If I bought a card from him as "ex" and it turned out to be, in my opinion, "vg-ex", I wouldn't say a word. <BR><BR>I had a similar situation with CollectibleClassics, and to be honest, I was actually wrong. But they cancelled the transaction for me before the card was even sent out, which was more than they should have done, and there were no questions asked. <BR><BR>I have only won one auction from Mastro prior to the most recent one, and not only did they provide excellent service, they sent me additional provenance for the item several weeks later, which I did not even expect. As long as the auction house provides a good selection, everything else is all about customer service in my opinion.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>multiple creases on vg-ex cards, etc. I agree that grading is subjective enough that I can expect a one-grade variance (hell, I always bid assuming the cards are a grade below the listings, with any auction), and I did follow that parameter on the other lots. For example the Colgan's Cobb I won was listed as a grade higher than it really was, as SGC agreed. I did not gripe about that; it was within "tolerance" (as we construction lawyers like to say).

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>B C Daniels</b><p>Could be "Tutor" as in Sunny aka Albert,the little sneaky blond kind who keeps buying quality cards and posting info on hewre sometimes."tor" has a few black & whilte E-97's I want to complete my set.

let's not get too self-righteous here
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>I've returned a card to Lipset a month after the auction. A T207 with a dead white border, and no shellack.<BR><BR>I also have had weird experiences with him, but one of them was because I TALKED about him, so I better shut up! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>