|
Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio
Has always seemed to me that they are underappreciated in the hobby. They may not be in the upper upper tier of important baseball players in the 20th century, but they are certainly extrordarily important figures. Maybe they are too close to recent memory to have that aura of the 27 Yankees and other great players? Or they lived recently enough that many of us remember them and their personalities, warts and all. Or maybe people disagree. Just feels to me that, as Rodney used to say, they get no respect. Or not enough respect.
|
I think a lot of it is that they missed key sets. DiMaggio’s career fell right between the Goudeys and 1952 Topps. And Williams missed 1952 Topps and a couple of the other 50s Topps sets. So they don’t have what would have been headline cards in ‘52 Topps. And as cool as some of the ‘40s and late ‘30s issues are to us, they don’t have the mass appeal of ‘52 Topps.
|
It really is a shame DiMaggio wasn't in the 49, 50 or 51 Bowman sets. Imagine the cards.
|
I look at Ted Williams and think, wow, what he could have done if the military service didn't interrupt his career. He'd have had 3K hits, 2K runs and RBIs. Who knows if he'd had a third or fourth triple crown.
Not saying Joe was a slouch. But he was a Yankee and received a lot of props for a career on great Yankee teams and all those WS championships. Now, here's where people are going to say I'm just stupid. I think Joe was a better overall offensive player than (get ready for this), the Mick. :p Good points about both missing the 52T set, but I've never looked at players based on what sets they were in. Joe did make the 38 Goudey set, but ok, it's not the prettiest set. |
Both upper tier in my mind.
Mandatory reading. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1...-bid-kid-adieu |
2 Attachment(s)
I've wondered if Williams would have stuck around if he had not missed all that time. He could have been close enough to the all-time home run record that maybe he sticks it out a year or two more. He wasn't really struggling when retired.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I think DiMaggio is hurt more than Williams by missing the 3 seasons due to WWII. Williams gets credit for the time he missed because he played longer than DiMaggio (17 seasons + 2 partial seasons to Joe's 13) and came close to milestones (521 HRs, 2654 hits, 1798 runs, 1839 RBIs). However, what is Joe's legacy if he plays those season and ends up with 11 Championships (most all time) and 4 or 5 MVPs? Joe was considered to better player at the time because he excelled in all phases of the game while Ted was clearly the better hitter. Today it seems like Joe is forgotten by a lot of people. DiMaggio is also treated poorly by advanced metrics. DiMaggio hit . 325/.398/.579/.977 vs Mantle . 298/.421/.557/.977. You would think that the guy who hit for more power with a higher average would be more valued, but Mantle is credited with an OPS+ of 172 while DiMaggio only 155. So while Mantle took advantage of the short porch in RF at Yankee Stadium, DiMaggio lost hits and HRs in Yankee Stadium's spacious LF. That is ignored by OPS+ and WAR. |
The Richard Ben Cramer biography of DiMaggio did his reputation no favors either.
Then again, no one was singing Ted, Ted Williams, we want you on our side. Or, where have you gone, Ted Williams? |
The OP says “under appreciated in the hobby.” I take this to mean value. Assuming that’s the topic, I agree that they are (certainly) a tier below the ultimates. I also agree that’s partly bc of the timing of their careers and their non-inclusion in one or more of the hobby’s ultimate sets.
That said, between the two, I would put my money on Joe D over Ted because (1) he was a Yankee, (2) he has the consecutive hit game record that will never be beat, (3) he is a prominent lyric in a major Simon and Garfunkel song, and (4) he was married to Marilyn Monroe. In other words, there are real and meaningful reasons greater than their baseball career to remember Joe over Ted. |
1 Attachment(s)
1941 56 Game Hitting Streak
|
Great point about neither of them being in some of the more "major" sets- 33 Goudey, 52 Topps, etc.
I'm with Ryan, I'll take Joe D... 9x World Series Champion, 3x MVP...Cool name. Marilyn Monroe. :) |
1 Attachment(s)
One of my fave BST pick ups..
|
2 Attachment(s)
I've always thought that Williams doesn't get his due - either in the hobby or overall.
I crunched some numbers on the time he missed for his war service - where he didn't have a cushy gig, he was actually flying planes instead of entertaining troops. For his two tours, I took the season before the tour and after the tour and averaged the stats, including the games played, and then added those stats to his career totals. And note, the missing seasons from the 1950s assume a reasonable number of games played for a guy who was getting a bit older but still had a lot left in the tank. If we assume would have played closer to 150 games those two years, these totals would have been a bit higher. The career ranks listed below are based on current totals. If we look at the leaders at the time he retired, he would have been #2 in HR and #1 in hits in addition to still being #1 in all of these other stats. In other words, Ted would definitely be held in much higher regard today and for the last 70 years. |
Joe D was a better player than Mantle, Mantle just came up during the boomer generation.
|
Quote:
How do you come in second place in the MVP voting during (2) Triple Crown seasons? Really! I get it, in 1941 Ted gets 2nd place in the MVP because Joe has that awesome hit streak (vs Ted's .406 batting average). I guess nobody could have predicted that would be the last .400 season, ever. I hope nobody reads into this and thinks I think Joe was a slouch because he is very underappreciated and was an incredible player. . . . |
Maybe an a bit of a facile comment, but maybe it's harder to mythologize a guy who you saw on television hawking coffee machines for two decades.
A lot of obscure players in the hobby that none of us ever saw speak or play who seem to retain an aura that's difficut to explain. And who couldn't shine either Williams or DiMaggio's shoes. |
Quote:
|
If he had been sitting at 691 HR’s he very well could have stuck around and possibly passed Ruth who was only at 715. How would he have been looked at if Aaron had passed Ted Williams record instead of Babe Ruth? Interesting to ponder.
|
I have never really collected many Joe DiMaggio items. I have had a ton of Ted Williams cards. Even with the Fleer complete set he doesn't really have any of those "this is an amazing card" cards. Even if we had a post your favorite Ted card it would just be a bunch of ugly cards.:eek:
As for what one is better. I guess I would go with the one that is in the GOAT discussion and not the one that was with a movie actress by a country mile. |
2 Attachment(s)
Another name you could add to this "under appreciated by collectors" list is Stan Musial. His numbers compare favorably with both Williams and DiMaggio. Stan lost one year to military service as well in 1945, but ended up with an impressive career stats line, as well as 3 MVPs, 7 batting titles, 3, World Series, and 24 All-Star appearances.
One thing that also hurt Stan with a lot of impressionable kids was that he wasn't in the early Topps baseball sets. He didn't appear in a Topps set until 1958. He also wasn't in many of the Bowman sets, but did appear in the 1952 and 1953 Bowman offerings. |
Quote:
Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Runs Hits Doubles Triples RBI Batting Average OBP Slugging OPS OPS+ Total Bases |
1 Attachment(s)
+1
Quote:
|
The World Wide Gum DiMaggio is selling just as high as the 52T Mantle. I would say Joe is getting plenty of respect in the hobby.
|
Joe D vs. Ted Williams
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
I like both the WF Ted and the 54T #1. Also the Red Man. I think he has lots of outstanding cards.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thay crack me up over there. I think the vast majority of Net54 thinks Ohtani is a generational talent and has the "potential" to be a GOAT. But if you don't bend the knee and already worship him as the GOAT, then you're just a Boomer that can't let go of the past. LOL!! |
Quote:
|
Underappreciated? Or are other players just overappreciated?
I suppose that we can argue whether it's two sides to the same coin. But part of me would almost argue that you're looking at a few other players whose cards are in the stratosphere, and therefore Joe and Ted are underappreciated because they're only in the troposphere, whereas I would suggest that the opposite is true - those other players in the stratosphere are just way too overappreciated, at least relative to their results on the field. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:54 AM. |